most popular US expat schools, do we have this right?

[snapjack543]

Hi everyone,
First time poster here. We are considering relocating from the states to London in the coming year and it's come down to finding a suitable schooling situation for our current 3rd (10 yrs old) and 6th grade (12 years old) daughters (i.e. rising 4th grader, rising 7th grader).

We know there are loads of other factors, but one major consideration for us is where students are likely to matriculate. We are particularly keen on having our children attend university back in the states for several reasons. So far, the top of that list appears to be American School in London where more than half head to the states. There appear to be a few of other popular options that have been suggested for expats: International School of London, Dwight School, and Southbank. Most of these students matriculate to European universities, it appears, given what we've read on their websites.

Firstly, is our understanding of these schools accurate? (if not what are we missing?)

Secondly, are there state schools we should also consider in our short list? We've mostly steered clear of state schools and the entire catchment area discussions thus far but we're open to it if it looks like a realistic option (though it does not given how behind we are on the learning curve and ages for gaining entry to the most competitive state schools).

Thanks in advance for your insights!

I came on to say the same. Lots of the advantages of an international school but still a British school. Great facilities, coed, lots going to the US. The downside for your eldest, at many British schools, is that you've probably missed the main entry process, so you'd be looking for an occasional vacancy. But you might have to look at separate schools anyway. I know you say you don't want that, but if you're looking at strong academic schools with great US college support then there's no guarantee that all your children would get in to the same school anyway, even without the issue of an occasional place for your eldest - these kinds of schools are not easy to get into, and siblings don't necessarily get places.

2025 entry to Sevenoaks has now closed for y9. 2025 entry for y7 entry is still open.

17:37: suitable schooling situation for our current 3rd (10 yrs old)
17:55: For a 10 year old, I thought she would be in year 5 next year?
18:18: She turned 10 last week. Dec 2014.

... Must have had a brain lapse earlier in the thread.

Yup. Quite persistent that.

I know a couple of people who attended Harvard after U.K. schooling. They did GCSEs and A levels. A levels tend to be more difficult than the US equivalent. Both people I know attended St Paul’s Girls School in London, which is private and very highly regarded.

This is probably veering off course, but from a British perspective, the students choose their universities and courses, and most of them (irritatingly) don't get round to thinking about it until (L6/Y12/Junior Year). The attitude to parents is 'mouth shut/wallets open'.

Two of my five DCs (all Americans) enrolled on international courses at Russell Groups. When it came to making decisions about a year in the USA in their third years, they simply weren't interested. One of the options DS had was a year, I think, at Notre Dame in Indiana. I was keen for him to do that as it would be close to grandparents and cousins in Ohio, and also other close relatives in Ontario. His attitude was, why would I give up all the riches of London to live in a cornfield with campus police? DD might have said nice things to make us happy but was rescued by lockdown. She did, however, do summer camp in Michigan in 2019, which she loved.

We had a look at prestigious universities with good financial aid. It's a while ago now, but one of the centralized financial aid programs, used a line on the US tax return called Adjusted Gross Income to determine eligibility. Once we took off foreign exclusions and tax credit (and child deductions), our AGI was miniscule. Still none of the DCs were interested.

Or just turned 9! Born December 2014.

Private universities in the US are often a far better value than state schools because a lot of the really good ones admit students on a need blind basis and cover up to 100% of the cost of attendance (tuition plus room and board plus incidentals like books) depending on family finances. Another tier of private universities covers up to 95% of cost of attendance. A highly qualified student from a family making up to $150k per year can expect to receive university financial aid ranging from the full whack to a few thousand off.

I'd like to correct the comment that students can gain admission to US universities with GCSEs.

There is a widespread shibboleth in the UK that British schooling is far superior to anything America offers, and that British students are streets ahead of their American counterparts in terms of university readiness. I think the GCSE comment reflects that.

No university of any calibre in the US would admit a student based on GCSE results alone. A university will look over an applicant's entire secondary transcript, including GCSE results, and assess the rigor of the coursework. But that's as far as it goes where relevance of GCSEs is concerned.

The top couple of dozen British private schools are starting to push their top students towards US unis. This is partly because Oxford/Cambridge have in the last 5 years reduced the numbers they're taking from the private sector so the schools are being less successful at getting large numbers in (and must somehow find another way to justify their exorbitant fees). So places like Sevenoaks, Highgate etc. are starting to appoint advisors on US college admissions.
Pre-16, the main options are the UK national curriculum leading to GCSE qualification, the IB middle-years programme (which some of the international schools including Dwight do, but not all) or, in a small number of schools, something bespoke. Latymer Upper (which has quite a few Americans) has just ditched GCSEs to go bespoke.
Post 16, The A level system promotes early specialization from age 16 (equivalent of grade 11). From the point of view of (US) college admission either IB, A levels or AP exams are all good currency. But very few places in the UK offer APs whereas IB is much more common.

US and UK college application systems are very different. US colleges want breadth/extra-curricular. UK unis want depth/height/super-curricular (i.e. degree subject-focused)
5 GCSEs with good grades is roughly equivalent to a (poor) US high school diploma but won't under any circumstances get you into a top tier uni in the US, though low-ranking community colleges will probably take them. An A level is worth around 2 AP's while an AS level (the first half of an A level) is worth around the same as one AP.

I don't think it's as simple as schools pushing students towards the US. There's a huge amount of appetite among a certain group of parents for the US, way before they hit sixth form or even secondary school - it's not unusual now to find parents of primary aged kids talking about how they'd like to send them to the Ivy League. It's not just about a lower chance of getting into Oxbridge if you went to private school - I think there's also an element of Oxbridge inadvertently reducing its cachet through widening access. Which is awful - but I think there's an increasing societal perception among wealthy parents (which independent schools are no doubt happy to nurture, as they're far better placed than state schools to facilitate it) that the US is the 'elite' choice.

I don't think that it is fair to say that independent schools are pushing students towards US universities. It might be an attractive thing to put into a prospectus but without any real conviction. This will also extend to other attractive world universities. It's much easier and beneficial to the students to focus on the UCAS process.

IME, students that head to universities abroad are based on either family heritage or for specific scholarships. I don't think you get many spontaneous applications - they just go to our prestigious institutions here, and there is life beyond Oxford and Cambridge.

I can't imagine many schools appoint advisors for US admissions. They will just give the post to a random Mathematics teacher, just as the give Oxford and Cambridge admissions to a random Classics teacher. They will get one free period a week to do this job.

As for 5 GCSEs being equivalent to the standards of a poor US university - no student would apply to university with fewer than 8 GCSEs and three Level 3 qualifications. It's not a race to the bottom.

A Times article from 2022 detailing the rise in US applications, the main cause being the decreasing likelihood of acceptance at oxbridge:
https://www.fhs-sw1.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/The-Times-17th-August-2022-Private-school-pupils-turn-backs-on-Oxbridge-to-chase-Ivy-League-places-1.pdf

https://www.sevenoaksschool.org/academic/beyond-sevenoaks/us-international/
"Our Head of US and International University Applications leads the team of staff who deliver the US and international support programme. Each student applying to the US has a dedicated college counsellor and can also access support from one of our specialist writing tutors"

https://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/academic/academic-13-16/careers-and-universities/
https://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/academic/academic-13-16/careers-and-universities/us-universities/
"We have our own dedicated team of ten US counsellors and support staff for US University Applications."

https://www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/international/transitions/from-american-schools-to-british
"5 GCSE passes at grade C or higher are considered the rough equivalent of a US High School Diploma (without Honors or 'Advanced Placement' (AP) classes). This will be sufficient for a student to gain entry to less selective US colleges and universities"

Just because you "can't imagine" it, doesn't mean it's not true.

Do these poor kids get a say in anything? They’re not even at secondary school yet as parents you are making decisions based on nothing educationally. You know nothing about British school curriculum and how none of it is based on anything American. You pull your kids out of US schools then put then to a British school all the while telling them to crack on but they’ll be back in the American system and the kid isn’t even 10 years old. I have a couple of friends who’ve ended up in the US and out of 9 kids 8 of them hated the US school system. Yours might feel the same going the other way.

I think you need to drill down on these headlines.

For example, Eton sends a lot of students to international universities because of the attraction of needs blind financial aid at well endowed institutions, and also token fees at EU universities. A large proportion of B-Blockers will have free places at Eton, and this will probably be attractive to US institutions. In addition, there is a large proportion of very wealthy students at Eton who can go anywhere they like. Ticked that box and all that. They didn't know about Phillips Exeter Academy, so Harvard is the next best thing.

As for school publicity material, read into them what you like.

If you look at a staff list of any larger independent school (500+), you will see that, in addition to normal teaching responsibilities, there will be teachers i/c American admissions, Oxford and Cambridge, Medical, Veterinary and Dentistry applications. It's hard to imagine how any normal school can employ someone full time just to oversee American admissions. It's something for the prospectus.

My DH used to recruit at ASL (the one in St John's Wood?) for his alma mater, and was seriously under-impressed.

As someone who worked as an independent college counselor for International Schools I would say the other schools showing more kids attending unis in Europe will be more a reflection of the families (less USA students and preferring EU/UK). However most likely your kids would still be very well prepared for US entry. You may want to talk to the college counseling departments in any schools you are interested in.

@mathanxiety my younger daughter transferred from the US system to the U.K. one. She was light years ahead of her peers in maths and critical thinking, had studied a wide range of world history (despite everyone saying they would only learn US history).

UK students are sometimes able to skip Freshman year (in a 4 year degree) in some US colleges if they have decent A levels. Similar case if they have an International Baccalaureate Diploma. This won't be the case in the most competitive universities however. No decent 4 year college will accept a student just with GCSEs - I have never heard of that particular myth before!

Seven to ten students from my local high school are accepted into universities in the UK and throughout Europe every year (from a graduating class of about 850 annually). Last year's crop went to St Andrew's, Edinburgh, Durham, Trinity College Dublin, Berlin University of the Arts, and Uppsala. This is in addition to the many students who were admitted to highly regarded US universities. And of course, lots of students also head to the local community college or on to apprenticeships or the armed forces. The local HS caters to a wide range of ability and aspiration.

I myself was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the curriculum all through the US system - the explicit instruction in writing was an eye opener, and I agree, mathematics and critical thinking were very strong. The history offerings were excellent locally too.

Watching this thread with interest , my DS is hoping to apply to the US for university. He has been working on his ec's for quite a few years and will apply with his A .levels in hand. It seems like a lot of work but he is very motivated. Hopefully it will work out for him, he will need financial aid which appears to be very generous at the colleges he is applying to.

It's interesting to note that many universities are now 'ACT optional', having seen the prep cottage industry and the advantage it confers to students from wealthier backgrounds.

No one has said that, though.

I don’t really understand why you’re so def on US universities if you’re moving permanently to England. Many of our universities are on par with the US ones you’ve mentioned and far cheaper

Not if you count international fees at UK universities, and not if you count the very generous bursaries US universities can offer.

Of course students apply to university with fewer than eight GCSEs.