Tiffin Boys 6th form - predicted grades

[anoukis]

Hi, does anyone know if Tiffin Boys takes into account year 11 predicted grades for 6th form applications?

My daughter has applied to their 6th form and the admission form asked for year 10 predicted grades (plus other info about extracurriculars). She exceeded the minimum required threshold - overall and subject-based, but not by a lot - had a mix of 9s, 8s, and 7s on her year 10 report.

Year 11 predicted grades will be available soon, her school sends an official report out at the end of this term mid-Dec. She was told by some of her teachers that year 11 predicted grades will be higher than the year 10 ones -- for quite a few subjects, including the 3 subjects she wants to study at A-level.

Finally, what if she does NOT get a conditional offer based on predicted grades, but ends up getting all 9s and 8s in ALL her GCSEs at the end of year 11? Can she still submit her actual grades in Aug 2024 to Tiffin Boys, with no conditional offer?

Thanks.

PS. We aren't familiar with the grammar school processes, Tiffin Boys is the only grammar she is applying to, rest are all local non-selective schools.

Applications are ranked by best 8 GCSE predicted grades and offers are made from that list in order (assuming you're within the priority catchment area). If your new predicted grades come out before the closing date of 15th December I would send them in to the admissions dept and they may consider them.

Anyone not given an offer is left on the waiting list and can ask to be considered once results are out in August but I have no idea if anyone has ever been successful this way - that would depend on the number of students given an offer who don't take up the place.

Thanks, yes we are in the priority area.

So let me get this straight... there are 3 offer scenarios for external applicants:

1. conditional offer based on high predicted grades for best 8 subjects OR
2. wait list based on not-high-enough predicted grades for best 8 subjects (but predicted total grade of 56 or higher) OR
3. rejection (predicted grade total score lower than 56)

So in theory, someone can have let's say a score of 60 in year 10 mocks, and be placed on the wait list for TF but not get a conditional offer. Then, they get an actual score of 70 in Aug 2024, but won't get a Tiffin Boys offer, because there are no places left... due to conditional applicants who were already prioritized and offered places, based on estimated subjective grades in year 10?

Forgive my ignorance, wouldn't it make more sense to accept / reject applications based on a minimum total predicted score of 56, but then rank the qualified applicant pool and make them firm offers based on the actual GCSE grades obtained in Aug 2024?

@anoukis this thread will answer your questions: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4923154-could-he-get-into-tiffin-school

You're right that the policy is flawed. It is covered in that thread.

Are these predicted grades based on which mocks? Summer or winter exams

Few points to hopefully help:
(1) The deadline is Friday 15th December. Not sure if there is a cut off time. But you wouldn't want to leave it for the last day in case you have technical problems.

(2) Re the most recent (and hopefully better predicted grades), could you ask the school about when the predicted grade reports will actually be out? You may have to talk to the Head of Year to see if they can help you get them earlier if necessary due to the deadline. They must know the new grades by now. They should hopefully help you. There's no point keeping the application secret from them because they'll be contacted for references and to confirm grades.

(3) Be careful of the best 8 subjects. It has to be subjects from their list in Appendix D of their 'Sixth Form Admissions Policy' document: https://tiffinschool.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Sixth-Form-Admissions-Policy-2024.pdf
I remember feeling miffed that one of her best - Sociology - wasn't on the list.

(4) On the form, she can ask to study 3 or 4 A levels, but they'll expect higher predicted grades for 4.

(5) I think one of the questions asks what your hobbies/ interests etc are. They like a well rounded child I feel. I know they're only meant to go off predicted grades, but the kids I have seen have passions outside of just good grades (i.e. drama, music, art, sports, etc). Doesn't hurt to mention them.

It's a great school, it's definately worth trying to make your application the best it can be.

Best of luck, I remember how stressful this all was last year.

It doesn't matter. Use the most recent, and if they get more results before the offers are made, send them in too.

It has to be subjects from their list in Appendix D of their 'Sixth Form Admissions Policy' document:

That's for parity with the internal applicants. Tiffin don't do Sociology GCSE.

I think one of the questions asks what your hobbies/ interests etc are

Yes, this is one of the questions with breaches the National Admissions Code.

How does that mean parity with the internal applicants? I notice that they do allow Greek GCSE, which will surely not have been available to all the external candidates.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7ebcdfe5274a2e8ab47e13/ADA2746Tiffin_School_Kingston_upon_Thames_12Sept14.pdf

Questions irrelevant to the legal assessment of suitability in the sixth form application were part of this complaint (and the Adjudicator's determination) - getting on for a decade ago ago.

The national admissions code says that external applicants and internal applicants to a sixth form have to have the same academic criteria applied. Tiffin have interpreted this to mean that they need to be judged on their best 8 of the same list of GCSE options.

@MarchingFrogs the school's current y12 admissions policy and form are near identical to the one they were told to amend "as soon as possible" in that judgement. It's surprising that the adjudicator doesn't have a follow-up process to check that schools have carried out their instructions.

They did try to make the policy more transparent by using predicted grades, but a recent judgement against Twyford Sixth Form established that that method isn't objective either.

I wouldn't stress about their Appendix D list of subjects. Just wanted you to be aware of it. It's easily missed if you're a busy mum.

At the end of the day, when your child is juggling 10 or more GCSEs in one sitting, and it's likely they'll be having two different exams on many days (five or six of my daughter's exam days had double subjects) an element of strategic revision has to be adopted. Knowing that Sociology wasn't on the Tiffin list, she didn't prioritise it as much as the others. Just something to be aware of that's all.

Irrespective of that controversial question, perhaps they don't look at the extra curriculars more than the grades. If my daughter and what she's told me of her cohort is anything to go by, we get the impression that the school offer conditional places on high predicted grades.

Ensure you get your most recent, better conditional grades sent in. For transparency and a guide I'll share. Off the top of my head (as it's been a year), she applied with mostly 9s and a few 8s.

Also to give some hope, one of her peers wasn't given an offer, but applied on results day with higher grades than her predicted and was offered a place. There also seems to be a small amount of school switching between the grammars and privates in the first two weeks. So it's worth seeing if you're near the top of a waiting list. Wishing your daughter all the best and to remember there's more than one path to achieve your dreams.

If my daughter and what she's told me of her cohort is anything to go by, we get the impression that the school offer conditional places on high predicted grades.

Yes, that's what they do (as per their policy). They rank applicants by predicted grade points score and make conditional offers to the highest scoring, although only up to point where courses are "full". That means applicants to the most popular courses will need higher predicted grades than applicants applying for courses with less competition for spaces.

All sixth forms are to some extent selective even if they're part of a school which is non selective from year 7 to 11. DS1 applied to 5 in North London - all had fairly similar entry requirements including mostly 7s, 7 for subjects applied for, 8 for Maths to do further Maths, one asked for a grade average of 7.5 in best 8 subjects (which is 60 compared to 56 for Tiffin). Though applications were all in year 11, mostly by the end of January, one I think was a bit earlier.

I would look not at whether the school is a grammar school, but at the outcomes for the subjects she wants to study and where she wants to do next (if she knows that)

Every predicted grade over 7 will take her overall points for Tiffin further over 56 so that may be enough. And otherwise, if predicted grades increase in autumn or January of year 11, even if this is too late for Tiffin, this will probably help with most other sixth forms, and may help for others that also have high entry requirements and great outcomes for A level.

Sorry, I misunderstood your original post, OP. I thought for some reason the application was in much earlier, and I'm rereading and realising your DD is in year 11. Still, if Tiffin doesn't take into account that your DD is making good progress from predictions that were already good (and above minimum) in year 10, I'm sure other sixth forms will. And I think it's important to look at what schools offer/contribute to their outcomes and not assume that the one with high entry requirements will be best.

It's true that we shouldn't get blinded by high entry requirements. We should always look at what schools offer/contribute to the kids. After just one term, I must say I'm very impressed so far with the Tiffin STEM teachers. Adjusting to A levels can be tough but regular assessments check understanding (and highlight weaknesses), constant maths homework in particular ensures they're cementing new topics, they have dedicated drop in sessions or are happy to answer adhoc questions in their respective staff rooms. All of these things are very positive. I was concerned that being a new external my daughter may fade into the background, but all the kids are treated the same. Overall, I feel Tiffin are offering plenty.

Having said that, her previous non selective school would have offered all that too. I think a hard working kid who is looking to improve will do well wherever they are. So please don't stress about whether your daughter gets offered a place at Tiffin or not. Wishing her all the best in her GCSEs and wherever she goes to for her A levels.

I'm sure the OP/DD are applying with their eyes open. The question is simply about clarifying the admissions policy. They're understandably concerned that the application form asks for GCSE grade predictions from the end of Year 10, and for the end of year 10 report. However, the admissions policy itself says the ranking is based on "our assessment of" applicants' estimated grades. This is subjective, and unspecific about timing, so if you send them updated information from year 11 they do have to take it into account.

Thank you all!

My DD did well in her yr 11 Nov mocks, as she did revise more than for year 10 mocks. Next set of mocks is Feb after half term and she looks motivated to revise so we're happy. Her current school is a good one. Her top 2 preferences are her current school and Tiffin Boys. She was also interested in Esher College, but she didn't get a place in the ballot - she's on the reserve list for that.

Her predicted grades in her best 8 subjects are as follows: 99887777. Not sure if this will get her an offer of any kind from Tiffin Boys 6th form, I'm hearing conflicting reports on this. In her 9th subject (Art) she is predicted a 6.

Anyways... I sent her updated predicted grades to Tiffin Boys more than one week ago and there was no reply whatsoever, which is a bit odd. They should have at least acknowledged receipt...

PS. For extracurriculars she listed: art, reading, running, tennis and awards DofE Silver and the Jack Petchey Achievement award. I honestly don't know why they ask about those things - do they really look at this info when evaluating applicants?

My DD got in last year, the school definitely took account of her updated predicted grades after her Y11 mocks, which went better than y10 exams and she got mostly 9 predictions at y11. As to what threshold is needed, of her peers who we know applied and got in, they all had predictions of majority 9s (minimal 7s). Extra-curricular questions were very similar to the ones asked by all the state sixth forms she applied to, but my impression is the predicted grades count most. She’s enjoying it now at Tiffin, has made some great friends, and some excellent teaching although STEM provision has been unfortunately patchy - I hope the school will sort things out (they are much less responsive to parents than her old comprehensive, and potentially more reliant on the studiousness of the pupils, but we’ll see). A reminder that no school is perfect, and all state schools have serious funding issues right now, including grammars.