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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

“Daily act of communal worship”

33 replies

BCCoach · 26/10/2023 20:45

It was my understanding that all schools in England and Wales were required to hold a daily act of communal worship of a broadly Christian nature by law regardless of whether they were a faith school or community school. DS’s infants and juniors (both CofE) did but his secondary (academy community) does not - they have two assemblies a week neither of which include hymns or prayers.

I have absolutely no problem with this (he only went to CofE for infants and juniors as those are the only schools in the village) but was curious to see whether this was others’ experience. There doesn’t seem to be any mention of it on the recent-ish OFSTED report.

OP posts:
Foxesandsquirrels · 26/10/2023 20:49

This is the reason they have tutor and assemblies. Communal worship doesn't have to be religious.

BCCoach · 26/10/2023 20:57

Foxesandsquirrels · 26/10/2023 20:49

This is the reason they have tutor and assemblies. Communal worship doesn't have to be religious.

I’m not sure how worship can be non-religious. Who are you worshipping in that case? But in any case the law says it should be “of a broadly Christian character” (not sure how that works in a Jewish or Muslim school).

As I say, they don’t have any form of worship at all at our secondary - unless you count reading out the sports results and reminding the kids that the woods at the back of the field are out of bounds as worship.

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 26/10/2023 20:58

Foxesandsquirrels · 26/10/2023 20:49

This is the reason they have tutor and assemblies. Communal worship doesn't have to be religious.

It sort of does really. "Of a broadly Christian nature" is religious, no?

It's troglodyte level nonsense so I wouldn't mention it OP in case they start.

trippinthru · 26/10/2023 21:09

@BCCoach this Wikipedia article explains it all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_worship_in_schools.

Ofsted haven't inspected it since 2004.

Collective worship in schools - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_worship_in_schools

BCCoach · 26/10/2023 21:36

Ah thanks @trippinthru so basically it’s not actually enforced in any way?

OP posts:
trippinthru · 26/10/2023 21:55

BCCoach · 26/10/2023 21:36

Ah thanks @trippinthru so basically it’s not actually enforced in any way?

There are plenty of people who would like it to be, but if it was, there would be a backlash. Currently there is a convenient balance - schools that don't want to do it can ignore it rather than feeling any need to request an "opt out" from the Sacre, and it also means that very few families feel any need to opt their children out of taking part. This means Church leaders can say "Only a tiny number of schools/parents opt out, therefore the policy is fine as it is". While the policy is in place, school leaders that do want Collective Worship can use it to back up their position. So everyone is happy. 🙂

WeWereInParis · 26/10/2023 22:05

As far as I'm aware my DD's primary school doesn't do anything that could be considered as communal worship that is broadly Christian.

Out of interest OP, what did your son's infant and junior school do that covered this?

DanceMumTaxi · 26/10/2023 22:07

It’ll be done during registration time.

trippinthru · 26/10/2023 22:13

DanceMumTaxi · 26/10/2023 22:07

It’ll be done during registration time.

Teachers can't be required to do this if they don't want to. It may happen in most faith schools, but most non-faith schools don't do it. Ofsted stopped inspecting it because the majority of secondary schools were non-compliant. Many primaries don't do it either.

WeWereInParis · 26/10/2023 22:22

DanceMumTaxi · 26/10/2023 22:07

It’ll be done during registration time.

But what does it actually consist of? I'm sure I didn't do anything at my primary school that would have counted. And definitely not at secondary school.
Hymns once a week in primary school I guess, but nothing daily.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 26/10/2023 22:23

Faith schools that aren't Christian can replace the 'broadly Christian' with their own faith.

Otherwise, most secondary schools just ignore it and instead cover PHSE type stuff in assemblies and tutor groups.

A lot of primaries also go for broad 'being nice to each other' messages in lieu of religion which kind of ticks the box.

Where it can be a problem is when you sign up for the non-denominational primary as opposed to the faith schools and then you get a religious headteacher arrive. You can end up with non-faith schools being considerably more religious than the local CofE.

trippinthru · 27/10/2023 06:26

WeWereInParis · 26/10/2023 22:22

But what does it actually consist of? I'm sure I didn't do anything at my primary school that would have counted. And definitely not at secondary school.
Hymns once a week in primary school I guess, but nothing daily.

At primary school it's traditionally done in a daily or weekly "assembly" led by the Headteacher, who leads a prayer (all children trained to put hands together, heads bowed and eyes closed), and hymns are sung. Some schools might have a link with a local vicar who leads it instead. Secondary schools are usually too big and busy for regular traditional assemblies. The Head (or vicar) may broadcast via screens in the classroom. But it's obviously much more difficult to expect secondary school kids to comply with the "hands together, heads bowed" requirement, or join in with singing hymns, so most schools don't bother

At my Catholic secondary school in the 1980s each lesson started and ended with a prayer, led by the subject teacher. Not sure if that still happens - I expect they would struggle to recruit teachers in every subject if they also needed to be willing to lead prayers.

BCCoach · 27/10/2023 08:11

WeWereInParis · 26/10/2023 22:05

As far as I'm aware my DD's primary school doesn't do anything that could be considered as communal worship that is broadly Christian.

Out of interest OP, what did your son's infant and junior school do that covered this?

Hymns and prayers every day, and the vicar in to lead a service once a week. Standard CofE village infants and juniors.

OP posts:
BCCoach · 27/10/2023 08:14

DanceMumTaxi · 26/10/2023 22:07

It’ll be done during registration time.

It’s not, and registration is at the beginning of each lesson anyway. If you read the link that a PP posted it turns out that OFSTED no longer enforce the requirement and over 60% of schools don’t bother any more - clearly ours is one of them.

OP posts:
trippinthru · 27/10/2023 08:36

BCCoach · 27/10/2023 08:14

It’s not, and registration is at the beginning of each lesson anyway. If you read the link that a PP posted it turns out that OFSTED no longer enforce the requirement and over 60% of schools don’t bother any more - clearly ours is one of them.

It was over 60% in 2004, so will be many more now that it is no longer inspected. Many teachers have never experienced it, and would shout loudly if it was ever re-enforced.

Longma · 27/10/2023 08:43

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FourChimneys · 27/10/2023 09:00

The definition is, quite rightly, very broad. Any overtly Christian worship discriminates against pupils and staff of other faiths or none, unless there is a comprehensive scheme of celebrating other faiths and beliefs as equals, including Humanism and Aetheism.

Good behaviour, kindness, fair play, respect etc are all suitable topics for form time or assembly. No need to have religion in schools at all actually.

Etherealcelestialbeing · 27/10/2023 09:57

In the last 10 years in primary it has been 'covered' by 2 or 3 weekly assemblies and class based assemblies'. In reality this means the head/deputy talks about school values (which are broadly linked to Christian/british values of respect, tolerance etc) then leads a very short prayer which is optional for children and staff.

Although ofsted are not inspecting the collective worship per se, all recent inspections I have heard of have had quite a focus on pupils moral, social, spiritual and wider world knowledge. So looking at RE, PSHE, history, geography and broader pupil experiences.

BCCoach · 27/10/2023 12:59

trippinthru · 26/10/2023 21:55

There are plenty of people who would like it to be, but if it was, there would be a backlash. Currently there is a convenient balance - schools that don't want to do it can ignore it rather than feeling any need to request an "opt out" from the Sacre, and it also means that very few families feel any need to opt their children out of taking part. This means Church leaders can say "Only a tiny number of schools/parents opt out, therefore the policy is fine as it is". While the policy is in place, school leaders that do want Collective Worship can use it to back up their position. So everyone is happy. 🙂

A brilliant and very British compromise 😁

OP posts:
Balloty · 28/10/2023 11:25

Interesting....

My child is in year 6 of a Church of England school and has recently asked if he could be removed to just read when they have the church services and collective worships.

Some children don't get to go if they are Muslim /Sikh as are some children with special needs who can not sit still for the long periods of time.

My child has started saying how concerned he is how fanatical some religious people can be, given current world events.

Can I request an opt out? Can I request he be allowed to read quietly or do some self directed study instead.

The school may get a bit grumpy, but can they bring it up in end of year reports?

Boomboom22 · 28/10/2023 12:57

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This. So every assembly pshe etc counts.

WeWereInParis · 28/10/2023 13:13

So every assembly pshe etc counts.

That seems an extremely broad definition of "worship" though. I can see how it can come under "Christian values", but it's not worship is it?

I mean, I'd happily have this requirement removed. It seems ridiculous, and in any case appears to be widely ignored anyway. I'm just interested in how broad the definition seems to be.

Boomboom22 · 28/10/2023 13:16

Yes I think schools take broadly Christian character to mean uk values and law. Worship is never included, respect of beliefs, multiculturalism and tolerance yes. Always with the caveat some people believe...

The last 2 secondaries I've worked at take 6th form to Carol services (optional but encouraged) but wouldn't dream of taking the Yr 7 to 11.

Boomboom22 · 28/10/2023 13:17

Oh and food bank collections for harvest festival etc count I'd say.

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