Secondary school choices

[Tuesday11]

Sorry another secondary school options thread! We're struggling to decide for DD and the deadline is at the end of the month.

School A - catchment school, is the only secondary school in the town we live so majority of children from DD's primary will go there so plenty of local friends. 30 minute walk from home. Poor academic results - Well below average Progress 8 score. Poor reputation locally but parents who have children who go there always say they are doing fine or ok. Seemed ok at open evening
1,500 pupils

School B - in neighbouring town but some children travel from our town there so hopefully dd would make some local friends. 20 minutes on bus each day but either DH or I would need to drop DD to a bus stop as not one in walking distance - which is doable . Was really impressed at the open evening - seems like it has great pastoral support and lots of extracurricular activities like trips. Pupils seemed polite and friendly
Academic results are in line with national average.
1,400 pupils

School C - faith school in another neighbouring town. DD would qualify for a place based on faith criteria. Bus would take 20 minutes but DD could walk 15 mins to bus stop. Hardly any children go to this school from our town. The catchment area is large so friends would be dotted around all over the place.
Much better academic results - well above average progress 8 score.
Smaller than other 2 schools - 900 pupils

DD likes all the options but would quite like to go to the local school as that is where her friends are going. She is bright so my concern would be academically she'd be better off at school B or C but maybe not socially better off

Which would you choose ?

School A, she'll make it her own.

A difficult one - but remember it is a preference rather than a choice and often people spend too much time worrying to find out they don't get their first choice anyway! So put your favourite first and be happy with the back up choices too.

Schools that are struggling often have a lot to prove and work super happy for their community to improve. Good luck with your decision.

I think A or C

Firstly, what does your DD think? Is it really important to her to stay with her friends? For one of my DDs that was paramount. Sending your DD to a school against her wishes could put you in for 5+ years of total hell.

How would your DD make her way home from school B? Would she have to walk from that far away bus stop or would you and DH collect her? Logistically, school B seems the most tricky with less advantage. If you're going to choose a school for academics, choose the best one.

If more pupils are focused on learning, there is less disruption. If most or at least more pupils are striving for top/good marks, that rubs off on the cohort. I know the research shows that it is the individual's personality that makes the difference academically but going to a better school does make that easier.

At that age, I didn't really have any friends so would have chosen school C for best academics. Also, in my day, classmates' parents often chose schools for them based on their requirements and we did as we were told.

If it’s doable as in you know at least one of you can drop DD off then B. Otherwise go for C.

Thanks all.

Logistically option B is the trickiest but still doable.

DD's only reason to prefer school A is because that is where her friends are going. My concern with choosing based on that basis alone is that she may be split up from her friends as they are put into forms

Have you looked at School A's results in more detail e..g schools that have a higher proportion of lower achievers tend to have lower Progress 8. Have you asked about the results - the school may well have a plan to turn them around (or the plan may already be in place - don't forget that the last set of results may be skewed at least slightly by Covid impacts).
In line with intake is a more interesting measure than Progress 8 (a school with a more able intake will get better results - this is not necessarily a reflection on the school!)

I'm a big fan of local school - I think a journey that requires you or DH to be around for drop offs (and presumably pick ups) for the next 5 years is going to be a PITA. Also it's likely to mean school friends require lifts to get to as well. So I would take B off the list.

I agree that you shouldn't pick a school on friend alone but they do help with the settling in process (even if in different forms) - presumably it will also be possible to walk to and from school with at least some of them?

What is the provisional P8 score for high prior attainers at school A? This is more useful than overall P8 if you know your child is bright.

A or C. She should be able to get home by herself. A would be best unless your dd is a behaviour problem in which case go for C. A child who works hard and is happy will do well anywhere. If your dd has significant needs or is very easily led in the wrong direction try elsewhere.

I agree with drilling down on the Progress 8 for school A to see what the prior attainment is ie what the usual cohort is for low, middle and high ability children, then what each of those gets for Progresss 8. Sorry, do you know how to do that? If not we can direct you, it is on the gov website not the school's usually. I would be starting with that.

its is tricky.

most kids make new friends at secondary, the kids they are close to in year 8 are not their primary school friends.

I would personally choose C.
B is logistically difficult, you are committing to it for 7 years, (maybe 5 if no sixth form) and at 15/16 she can't be independent and ties you both.

I do think academic success matters in a secondary school. C is not far, there will be school C kids in your town.

I know some people do drop at the bus stop every day because they have no other choice, but realistically that is a massive tie for 5-7 years. For that reason, I'd probably discount school B.

For me, the results at school A would be a concern, but it does depend how bad. You do always get people on these threads who want to excuse poor results and poor P8, but as a teacher I'm unconvinced. If your peer group are all low achieving, then that often does impact attainment and aspiration for other children. If top sets are catering to a wide spread of ability, that can also hurt high attainers. If most children are aiming for a 4-5, that is where a lot of the teaching in mixed ability groups will be pitched.

People will say that you can tutor, etc, but it's hard to persuade a child getting 5s who is in line with all their friends to engage with a tutor.

For me, I'd probably go C, A, B.

I do get that having local friends etc is really nice, but you can make local friends through hobbies etc- it doesn't just have to be who you go to school with.

@Knottgorse thank you, I know how to drill down into P8 scores not not really sure what I'm looking for in terms of what is good or not. I will post the drill down list and hopefully someone will be able to help with what each score means.

Hopefully this will post ok - I've tried to attach School A's results if anyone could advise what these mean that would help

Eek, sorry OP. That’s not good. Children of all abilities get worse outcomes at school A than comparable children at other schools nationally. Previously high-attaining children achieve on average 0.68 of a grade worse at school A than they would elsewhere. The attainment 8 score suggests that PHA children achieve an overall average grade of just below a grade 6 in their best eight GCSEs, which is poor.

@ThanksItHasPockets thank you for that.
Do you divide the A8 score by 10 for a rough average grade?

How do they work out who is a low, middle and high achiever? Is it based on SATs results?

Yes and yes. High prior attainers are children with an average scaled score of 110 or higher in their KS2 SATS.

@Tuesday11 Ooh shit that is not good results wise especially middle and high which is where you feel your DD is. How does that compare to the other schools? Yes Progress 8 is based on their SATs results to see how far they have come.

Here is a good explanation of what it all means

https://www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/curricula-and-exams/progress-8-attainment-8

I am going to be honest and tell you to look way ahead. It is all well and good saying children are doing ok there but where does that get them after 16? For A levels they need decent GCSE grades so 4s and 5s would mean A levels would be too hard a stretch for them. If ultimately you think uni might be on the cards just as an avenue you may want for your DD then the absolute lowest grades at A level to continue would be CCC and that would likely mean a foundation course rather than straight into a degree course. ie they need to spend a year getting up to the standard needed for the degree. It is usually a one grade drop I believe from GCSE to A level so 7s (and A equivalent) would be a B at A level.

I would want to know the number of children who attain 5+ at GCSE in both English and maths what they actually get, is it mainly 5s?

School B's results

School C

Are these high enough to warrant the extra faff with buses?

I should add schools A and B have a 'good' rating ofsted
School C has a 'requires improvement' rating but head had only just started when the inspection took place and at the open evening they had plans in place to address the issues highlighted in the inspection

School B definitely not worth the extra faff as P8 is still in the negative. Also it does worse by its high prior attainers than school A, so there's really not much going for it for your DD. School C looks slightly better, so in your shoes I'd probably put that as first choice.

@ValancyRedfern what data are you looking at?

School A, HPA P8 -0.68, A8 58
School B, HPA P8 0.09, A8 66.2

Not stellar but HPA achieved nearly a full grade more in 2023 at School B than at School A.

Sorry read it as -0.9 rather than 0.09