Se London private from state primary

[Eboblah]

My ds is in y6 in a lovely but non-academically rigorous state primary. We’ve recently become lucky enough to be able to consider private school but I’m a bit concerned that we might put him through the process and end up with nothing. I had thought, clearly naively, that being able to afford it was the main issue. He’s bright but not extraordinarily so, and it seems all the schools in reasonable commuting distance have very high academic standards and/or are massively oversubscribed. He has lots of interests but not any that would get him a scholarship. On atom he’s doing ok, but his written work is quite poor (we have now got him an English tutor but there are limits to what can be done in the timescale), I think he’d do ok in interview as he’s very engaged, interested in everything and a generally nice kid (imho), but not sure how much any of that would count. We’re looking at Alleyns, St Dunstan’s, Emanuel and Royal Russell. So 2 questions really - are there any other nearby coed schools that I might have missed? Are any allowances made for coming from a state primary? And I know impossible to answer but what are his chances before I put him through all this?!

In some ways it is easier to get a child to pass for a private school than a grammar because the exams are generally set by the school and are very traditional. This means that an English and a Maths tutor are sufficient for teaching the skills required (and the exams are quite ‘trainable’ in a short period of time). Having said that, there are other factors to consider such as the fact that there are usually not that many places available and if there is a junior school attached to the school, a sizeable chunk will go to those children (at Alleyns, for example, it’s about a third of the places). The interview is usually just to confirm that the child has outside interests and will be happy and an active member of the school. It rarely makes any difference which school the child has come from except where it is pertinent as to SEN etc. If you get decent tutors, your son will probably stand as good a chance as anyone so it really depends how much you and he want it. It’s also worth checking how many children apply each year and compare that with the number of places available.

I’m assuming from that list that you want a co-ed option. Whereabouts in SE London are you? I would think about travel very carefully as your son might have to get on a minibus for an hour at 7.15am. This might not faze you but it would be a no-go for my family!

Other co-eds in the SE London area (loosely drawn) include Bishop Challoner in Bromley, Thames Christian College in Clapham, Colfe’s in Lee, Eltham College in Mottingham, Farringdons in Chislehurst.

There are a lot of very good comprehensives in South London.

I would look very carefully at those and the private schools - there are a couple on your list that probably aren't worth the expense. And places like Alleyns and Emanuel are very competitive.

If DS is already in Y6 you've left it very late to do the kind of prep you'd need from a non-academic state primary.

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. @Moglet4 it seems they all have junior schools so by the time they've taken about a third of the places, then half for girls and a few for scholarships there are really few places left. It just seems demand massively outweighs supply.

@ghislaine thanks for the suggestions, I hadn't heard of some of them but they're all a bit too far/awkward from where we are, or religious which we're vehemently not. We're bang in the middle of the 4 we're looking at so all journeys can be done within about 45 minutes or less, a long bus journey twice a day is not for us/him either.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow we started prepping at the end of year 5 when my son suggested he'd like to try a different kind of school as he's finding his current one increasingly disruptive. I realise it's very late and we have a lot to catch-up and think it's likely we'll drop Alleyns from the list for that reason On Atom at least the other 3 still look feasible, although no real idea how reliable that is. I take it you don't hold St Dunstans or Royal Russell in high regard? I know their results are not at the same level but that's not really the main motivation for him/us - it's more to be in a setting with small well-behaved classes, personal attention and all the extra-curricular elements. But if you have other reasons not to rate them please do spill! We are looking at comprehensives and there are good ones near us, but no guarantees of entry based on where we live. And as good as some of them are, they still pale against all the privates we've visited, part of me wish we'd never looked.

I would think that St Dunstans and Royal Russell would be achievable; I would ask their registrars what the state vs prep ratio is for Y7 entry.

If you did want to consider single-sex then I hear Dulwich Prep are opening up a senior school. It might be relatively easy to get in for Y7 at the moment as most people don’t want to move schools for two years and then move again. CLSB would also be a fairly straightforward commute from SE London.

There’s also London Park School in Clapham, I’d forgotten that one. It’s very new.

are massively oversubscribed.

They are only oversubscribed because most parents do what you do, apply for about 5 schools with the intention of only going to one.

So don't get phased by the numbers, just focus on exam and interview prep.

Like others have said, your doing everything now and these schools aren't stupid, they know a child from a non-academically rigorous state primary, isn't usually as polished at interview as a boy from an elite selective prep school.

He has every chance of gaining a place, and to be blunt, you are correct, having the cash is the major consideration for private school, because if you can't afford to take a 25K a year hit , your DC's suitablity is irrelevant.

I would suggest asking a friend your DC doesn't know well to mock interview him, asking him opinions on things like what he thinks of humans settling on Mars, or the rise of AI, the implications for humanity, If you could solve one problem in the world, what would it be and why? Those sort of questions, and of course, why does he want to come to Alleyns, Dunstans, etc, if he says because my mum said I had to, it wont go down well.

Also mock exams can help

We have friends with kids in Alleyns and Dunstans and very happy with both. But both competitive - former always so and latter much more. But someone has to get the places!

Don't be worried by the ratio of applications to places. If there's an average of 3-4 applications per child then any school that has twice as many applications as places is in fact undersubscribed.

it sounds like you will be applying to schools that aren't the very top tier for academic selection and that means a lot of the other applicants will be kids who are aspiring to some very highly selective schools and will only be applying there as a fallback

@Eboblah Like you, we did not start prepping until quite late, last term of Y5. My daughter is in her first year of A Levels now so it's a few years back but honestly, the most useful thing we did was make sure she knew how to take an exam and practise trying to speed up her working because she could be a bit slow even though she usually got to the right answer in the end. We only applied for two schools in the end but she got both of them so it is achievable IMO as long as your son is OK with putting a bit of work in and as long as you are realistic about what his ability/potential is (I know this can be hard to gauge coming from a state primary).

We are in SW London rather than SE so the schools aren't the same but it is definitely possible, and DD came from a very ordinary primary too.

Re taking an exam, it was all the stuff that is obvious to an adult like pacing yourself, leaving a question you find hard (instead of getting bogged down) and going back to it later if you have time, checking everything (and leaving time to check), writing bullet points if you are running out of time and don't have time for full sentences, getting used to working to a clock and working out how much time is left etc etc. Even practising taking an exam in silence without talking to anyone can actually be useful at this age!

Best of luck!

I always hear good things about Colfe's.

Everyone I know with kids at St Dunstan's are happy, but I know people with bright DCs who didn't get in at 11+ this year, and yet I have it on good authority that they had spaces in Y7 this September... so I have no idea what their game is.

You have every chance - remember these private schools are businesses and need bums on seats - they’re well aware that kids from other private schools will have been well prepared. And we’re in a cost of living crisis … Often the schools have samples of their entrance tests on their websites

We're in a really similar situation Eboblah.
Our DS is also in state primary and I think only one other child in his year is also considering private. He's bright but dyslexic so struggles with written work and while pretty solid academically he's definitely not at the top of his class.
We're looking at very similar schools to you - not Royal Russell as it is too far for us. He's been having tutoring, but for various reasons it was slightly sporadic at times last year, so he's probably still not where he needs to be.
We've been pushing him more this term but I'm currently feeling quite doubtful about whether he will get in to any of those we like the look of. What has helped is taking him to see some of the schools as he now really likes some of them so that has helped him focus more on the work he needs to do.

I'm also trying to look at the situation more broadly. There are other good state options around us, though none of them a certainty for him to get into. I'm not desperate for him to go private, but just considering it to give a possible wider range of options. From what I have seen I think some could suit him really well, we really liked St Dunstans. If he does not get into any private option I think the extra prep we are doing will have been beneficial anyway, as he will have had that extra support on areas he is weaker such as comprehension. He'll also have got used to doing more homework ready for when he goes into Y7, wherever that ends up being.

Thanks for all the comments.

@strawberryband Good point about the number of applications being misleading, and dividing by 4 or 5 makes it seem a lot less daunting. And good advice about the interview prep, will sound out some friends.

@ghislaine Boys schools are not for him but Dulwich Prep expanding should hopefully reduce some of the competition.

@BonjourCrisette that's good advice re the exam practice. Currently he's mainly doing the learning journey's on Atom but should move on to mocks soon. I think time management could be quite a major issue as he's so easily distracted but hopefully in the real things it will be better. I can't imagine I'll ever be able to get him to convince him to check his answers though, I'll fight that battle when I've won the current 'debate' about using a paper and pen for workings.

@Brugmansia it's so hard getting the balance between encouraging them to do enough work to stand a decent chance but then not wanting to stress them out about it, while also knowing they could work really hard and still not get a place and then feeling like they've failed despite the effort. I have promised a decent summer holiday if he doesn't get in (this year we camped in Wales so it's a low bar) so there is some upside. The visits did motivate him but it's such a double-edged sword as the more motivated he is the harder it will be if he doesn't get in. Good luck with it all!

About maybe not getting in, we did tell DD repeatedly in the lead up that if she didn't get either of the schools she was interested in it was absolutely no reflection on her because the selection process is both hard and also contains some element of randomness. I think it did help a bit to try and make it a low stakes process and just enjoy it for what it was. She did not expect anything really, maybe because I'd gone a bit hard on how difficult it was, so was really delighted when she got into the schools she liked.

"2 questions really - are there any other nearby coed schools that I might have missed? Are any allowances made for coming from a state primary?"

Etham college and Colfe’s ? Depends on where you are in SE London.

I think in your list, apart from 2 schools that is potentially a bit competitive (but nothing like the ones in the North/West London)" For the rest, if you prep regularly from now and if your child already in the top set in the state primary you should have a good chance.

And yes most of the secondary private love to have kids from state primary schools.

Good luck.

Can you give an example of a good comprehensive in South East London?

Charter North, Charter East, Kingsdale, Graveney, Dunraven...

@PreplexJ thanks, unfortunately Colfes and Eltham college are a bit awkward for us to get to. I’m interested by your comment that private secondary’s love to have kids from state primary - why?! I’d have thought they’d be harder work as less used to the private system behaviourally and also academically behind? What’s the advantage for them?

Dont think students will be lag behind academically once they pass the entrance standard and got in. The private schools love to have more state educated kids because it is good for their own PR in general.

For the entrance exam they might be a bit disadvantage to some prep school (not all private) kids due to not enough dedicated preparation but for the list of the schools you have in mind I won't worry about too much if your kid already good in state and do sufficient prep work.

I was In Your shoes quite a few years ago when we decided quite late that was the route we were going to take. But at this stage you are cramming to get them through. My Eldest was doing a past paper at night and weekends until Xmas plus an hour before school.. I also did vocabulary tests with them to and from school. This might sound extreme but their school wasn’t planning on doing any year 6 syllabus until the start of jan which was after the 11 plays exams. Was immensely stressful and when it came to next child we did it all gradually over the 2 years beforehand without any stress. You live and learn. We got there in the end but the competition is fierce. That is even before you get to the interviews which was almost an even bigger stress. But it can be done. We did do a lot of chat with them that they may not get any places and it isn’t a reflection on them.

once at the secondary school I found that the state school primary children were actually slightly ahead of their private primary friends simply because of the amount of 11 plus prep the state primary children had to do. The children who simply came up from the junior school without an exam had to do a lot of catching up.

the system is completely silly tbh. No one would devise a system like this from scratch. By the end of year 7 everything had righted itself.

Those schools aren't realistic options for the majority of children in S London. The Charter schools have tiny catchment areas. I think Dunraven is similar. Kingsdale is a lottery, so everyone has a chance but it is also massively over subscribed. Graveney is also quite a small catchment I think unless you manage to get one of the selective places by doing the Wandsworth test, but that is very competitive.

They're also not necessarily convenient to get to from a lot of places as transport around S London is not always straight forward. We've ruled out Graveney on that basis as the journey is too much of a faff.

There are other good schools around of course. It's just that where you live may mean that the chances of getting into a good one may be really slim. Adding in a couple of private options may add some choice when we have to make a final decision in March.

True - but they are examples of good comprehensives in the area (I got the impression the PP was hinting that there were none).

I would think Graveney is less competitive than Alleyn's or Emanuel in terms of the test, and no less of a faff journey wise than Royal Russell would be?

With Charter, I might be weighing up whether I'd be better spending my cash on a house in catchment (aka appreciating asset) than private school fees (with risk of added VAT coming in) especially if I had multiple children.

I agree, it is not the case there are no good comprehensives. There are a lot of different options with state secondary schools in S London as a whole. Some like the ones you mentioned are really good and are seen as very desirable. Others though may not have the same reputations but are still perfectly decent. There are also a number where there are allocated places for particular aptitudes, e.g Chestnut Grove, so places are available if you live further away. The whole system is just far too complicated really.

I know people in the past who have temporarily moved to get into Charter. They were in the process of looking to buy a house but not finding one, so rented near by for a year or so at the point their eldest was in Y6, then moved further out later. It's not a practical option for most people though, certainly we wouldn't want to uproot now as we're settled where we are.

In terms of journeys, again it just depends where you are. Both Graveney and Royal Russell would be quite long and complicated journeys for us, but from other areas may be more sensible.

I'd imagine the Graveney selective places might be more competitive than the privates as there's no money element acting as a filter on the number of children taking the test. And from my reading of their website it's only the top 70 who take the Wandsworth test that get the places, and if they don't take it up then the places go on distance instead - but please someone tell me if I've read that wrong. He took the test but mainly because Chestnut Grove might be an option.

I know people who have moved to get into Charter but not sure we could get a purchase sorted in less than 4 weeks. I really like where we live anyway, but now I'm so caught up in the madness of this process I'm kicking myself I might have missed a trick.

If Kingsdale wasn't a lottery this would be a lot less stressful.