Average class percentage

[Thingsthatgo]

My DS has just started in yr 7. He has been put in the top maths class, and he seems to be managing ok.
I noticed that the teacher had stuck inside his maths book a sheet which lists each topic, with a space for a percentage score and a space for the average class percentage. It seems a little brutal to me, the constant comparison. Is this normal?

It is for you to see how he is doing in relation to his peers. If he is well below the class average then this may show that he is struggling. Many parents complain that just giving a percentage does not give parents enough information. Is 70% a good score? Not if the average is 85%.

It would show the topics that may need more focus on. Also, less worry if hitting the average. So instead of Maths below average, area and fraction need more focus whilst all other topics is fine.
The issue is that in some selective/grammar schools the average is quite high therefore even those below average could still get 7/8/9 at GCSE.

Our school are keeping in the eng and maths books. So havent even seen the book
I guess with maths the most important is to look at errors to see if understand where went wrong

Thanks all. I've explained to DS that he is in the top set of 8 classes, so if he is below average it is absolutely fine. I also highlighted that it helps the teacher to see gaps in his learning. He says he will feel pretty crappy if he is consistently under average (I would feel the same way TBH). I'm going to have to manage this carefully I think.

this is the kind of information that sounds really useful to parents but needing sensitivity when being dolloped out to 11 year olds.

@puffyisgood yes, I agree. I was very pleasantly surprised by his SATs results, because at primary school I had very little indication of how he was doing academically. Knowing where he is in relation to his class is useful, but this information could be given to parents via one of the many many apps the school utilise!

@Thingsthatgo His primary school should have had a very clear idea about how well he was doing. Shame they couldn’t communicate it.

To maybe make you and DS feel a bit better: what your DS has in his private book is far removed from the ritual humiliation we endured at school. Form Orders. Twice a term, all marks were added up for each subject, then divided by the number of subjects to give a number. This enabled each pupil in the form to be ranked 1-30 overall. Each “order” with subjects, marks and ranking was pinned to the wall in the home classroom for anyone to look at. So being top 10, might feel ok, but bottom 5 was utter public humiliation.

So I can see this is just between DS, teacher and you. Can’t see that’s so bad. If you are not keeping up, Dc do need to know. No surprises. The school probably need to review sets so if he is reviewed, it won’t be a surprise but. of course, might never happen.

Ive had a go at my dd’s teacher more than once because in one subject it is not just the average, the give top and bottom of the class score.

It's maths and it encourages a mathematical way of understanding the world.

If they are performing badly compared to the rest of the class then they have a chance to raise their game. If it continues teachers might think they'd be better of in a set where things go at a slower pace. Consistent statistical feedback means there are fewer surprises and hence less upset (parent & child) when that happens.

My sons school don’t do different level classes until year 8 apart from in maths but they’ve said they’re waiting for their CATS next week other than hat they stay in their form group for all lessons.

When I was at school, admittedly a long time ago now, we were ranked from 1 to 350 on every subject. Its good to know where you stand compared to your peers, but can dent your confidence if you have a bad end of year exam.

DDs school used to give median on the school reports for every subject. One year they bizarrely didn’t and a lot of parents were unhappy. As others have said, when your child gets 40% it’s useful to know the median was 45% rather than 80% for example. It puts things into perspective and informs you of easy/hard papers. As he’s top set you need to ensure that he’s not too concerned about being below average in that set though, I think you already said this.

Ok, I guess we both need to toughen up a bit. DS is sensitive and a perfectionist (possible ASD), so it's going to need a bit of handling, but it's just part of growing up. I wonder if they do it for every set in maths; the lowest group is a small class for children with SEN - I can't imagine that it is helpful there.

I wouldn’t say that you necessarily need to toughen up but you will both need to adjust to the fact that there is significantly more formal assessment in secondary and consequently a LOT more data fed back to students and parents, especially if his primary school was poor at this (his SATS results should not have been that much of a surprise, even if it was a pleasant one!).

Students compare their marks after every assessment. They will work out where they are relative to their classmates whether the teacher makes it explicit or not. That being said, some top sets can be very competitive and this doesn’t suit all children, so if after a while you think he might do better in set 2 then you can always ask to speak to his teacher or the head of maths.

@ThanksItHasPockets , so true about data feedback. Also, the case with some primary school have less data feedback so found that ours fail in teaching mixed ability maths in class with tables meant to change and be flexible according to learning capabilities. DC didn’t get taught the harder questions but could do it if taught as shown in secondary school. This is very helpful in reposing concepts not fixed in primary schools to build a solid foundation.

I do this, give the class average and also the top mark for the group when handing back tests (but never the lowest mark). Without that benchmark the individual percentages are meaningless.

Some tests are very difficult, particularly for lower sets. Parents get panicked if they see that their kid got say, 40%. If they know that the class average was 45% and the top mark was 60% it puts that 40% into context.

@noblegiraffe I am glad teachers do this. Ds used to be told the top mark, the lowest mark and the average whether it was maths or history. This was especially helpful when Ds was moved up a set in year 10 and could see himself go from the bottom of the class (obvious) to the top 3 students by the end of the year.

@Thingsthatgo Children tend to look at each other's scores anyway on the front of their papers and tell others in the class. That has no meaning unless you know the parameters in which that score falls. You need to tell your son that everyone at school is there to learn, sometimes children who do well all the time glitch and perform poorly. He is year 7 so has some way to go before GCSEs and that is when it counts. Right now he is being tested on the end of topics and can see how well he understood and retained that information and whether his revising techniques are working. Put a positive spin on it.

@Thingsthatgo DD3 is bottom set and this is STILL useful data! She obviously gets low percentages & therefore likely to think badly of herself. Whereas if that’s put in perspective of the class or even the year group it helps. They seem to think EVERYONE else gets 100%!

I don’t see how being repeatedly told you are bottom of the bottom set does anything for self esteem or learning. It reinforces you are not very good. Dc tend to know where they sit within a group but reinforcing Dc is bottom doesn’t sound great to me.

This exactly. People only think it is a greta idea when their child is at the top, or at the bottom through laziness and needing a push.

That's why I wouldn't tell them what the bottom mark is.

So you actually think Dc don’t know who might be bottom? I bet they do. It usually becomes obvious with class work and answering questions.

At primary as a maths governor, I sat in a small class that was our group not likely to get 100 in sats. It was a great lesson but it was plainly obvious who was really struggling. I’ve no doubt Dc did too. Marks are only part of the story.

Yes, they have an idea of where they are in the pecking order, they are not stupid. But that isn’t a reason to tell them in front of the class that they got the lowest mark on a test.

Of course not tell them in front of the whole class. I tend to think marks are personal. Who really needs a class position?

Marks are personal but without context they are useless. Hence providing the class of the context of class average and top mark (but not bottom mark because that’s not fair on the person who got the bottom mark to find out in public).