Conditional offer for 6th form

[Stranger3]

Dd has a 6th form place at JAGS conditional in GCSE grades - i am sure all as standard, with 8s or above required for her chosen A level subjects and a certain number of 7s or above. She is not too confident about how she has done, particularly in a Science paper she wants to do for A level which is key for what she wants to do at university. With GCSE results fast approaching she is getting increasingly anxious about it all. I was just wondering if anyone has any idea how stringent schools tend to be if a grade is missed - even narrowly? I am sure it is all individual and depends, but this is something i find it very hard to get any insight on so if anyone has been through something similar or has any words of wisdom as to what to expect, that would be much appreciated. There is obviously no equivalent of Clearing for 6th form admissions so I am wondering what kind of a plan B is possible in this situation in the context of independent schools… Am hoping to hear that unless it is a huge multiple miss schools might be lenient but any information much appreciated. Thank you!!

@Diospyros thank you so much for all this brilliant advice. All this is duly noted and makes sense. we have been looking at volunteering opportunities already and havent had much luck as yet but we havent spent log looking so far. i did put her down for the Y12 St John’s Cadets and just yesterday got an email from them saying that for the three locations i applied for, there was an average 2-3 year waiting list because of a lack of adult volunteers! Am i looking at the wrong thing or how can anyone get on this? I think we got on the lists a year ago. :( we will of course be looking for other opportunities, starting now.
Love the idea of looking around Guy’s - she will love it. Thank you!! Regarding the schools she has had Imperial in mind for a while but not based on any in depth knowledge- we know one medical student there who is now a junior doctor and she likes the idea of staying in London. We will get working on looking into the schools.
Thanks again so much.

@KingscoteStaff thats great to hear about the same a level choices! :) she is now also wondering about doing Physics too but perhaps doing that as an EPQ would be more manageable and i think that is what the school generally steers them towards.

I'm biased because one of mine has recently graduated from Imperial and loved it! They would highly recommend it - the quality of teaching and placements, the opportunities in research, travel etc, the support from colleagues and staff. Things to think about:

The med school has it's own sports clubs and other societies (and a bar at Charing X hospital) that seems to make them a close knit and social group. It's important to have a healthy work life balance as a medic.

Being a med student or doctor in London or a big city means seeing different issues/diseases from being a med student somewhere like Keele or a doctor in the Highlands (actually, Imperial does offer an intercalated BSc in Remote Medicine), for example. There are pros and cons to studying in different locations, being in smaller hospitals versus large, your DD might want to consider where her interests lie and to be sure she has chosen the best med school for her. If nothing else, the subject quite often comes up as an interview question 😂

Imperial, UCL and Oxbridge are more focused than other med schools on producing doctors who are also academic scientists. Does the academic side of medicine and research interest your DD or is she more interested in practising medicine and wants to get to work ASAP?

Intercalation is compulsory at all 4 of those universities - taking an extra year to study for an academic degree in a specialist field and undertake a short research project. It's an amazing opportunity if that is what your DD wants. If she isn't that interested, it's another year of living expenses and 2 years of getting by on the NHS bursary instead of 1 (it's less than the student loan and means tested so she may only get the £1000 NHS grant plus the non-means tested reduced rate student loan for medical students of about £2.5k for years 5-6).

https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/2023-01/NHS%20Bursary%20Funding%20for%20Medical%20and%20Dental%20Students%202022-23%20%28V5%29%2012.2022.pdf

There used to be an advantage in taking an extra degree and/or publishing when it came to applying for foundation roles but the process has changed now.

There are a few opportunities at Imperial to take an intercalated PhD before continuing with clinical training, if she is as passionate about the research side of medicine as the practical side.

Imperial and London are expensive! The halls are expensive, as are the areas most students tend to live. They have very generous bursaries for students from households with an income lower than £60k. Students from the lowest income bracket will receive about £19k in loans and bursaries. I would budget for a similar amount. It's not much fun being a med student and working during termtime, there are no long summer vacations after the first 3 years so they can't get a summer job. If you can't help out, your DD might have a better quality of life outside of London.

Other things to know would be that the teaching style at Imperial is integrated leaning towards traditional with a bit of PBL... which probably means nothing to your DD yet 😂This might help her think about what type of course is best for her:

https://www.themedicportal.com/quizzes/would-i-be-better-suited-integrated-traditional-pbl-course-quiz/

Also, they teach anatomy by dissection.

@Diospyros i am so sorry this is such delayed response - two DDs have just started new school, 2 year old going mad and back at work, so feel like i have been hit by a truck! Your post is so incredibly helpful thank you!
I am so happy to hear your DC enjoyed Imperial. - DD doesnt know about it in detail but she does love the sound of it, and is happy with the idea of staying in London. She has also been thinking about Cambridge although has been told (by the MedSoc at school no less) that they MAY prefer someone who has maths or physics A level along with Bio and Chemistry (DD is doing English, Biology and Chemistry). I am not sure if that is a significant issue or not and i realise in any case Cambridge must be massively tough to get in to. Would imperial mind English literature as an A level?
She loves the idea of doing medical research - fascinated by neurology. - but definitely wants to practise. But i think from that perspective Imperial sounds good! And i think intercalation sounds amazing - she would love it. I realise London is expensive but all being well we should be able to help her out. And she came out with integrated teaching from the quizz!
We are just getting started and i appreciate your advice regarding starting to look for work experience now. She has another opportunity to shadow doctors but I realise an actual job or volunteering are also needed. I will head over to the medicine threads too but i assume a weekend job would hopefully be OK and care or other customer facing roles would be preferable? Feels daunting I already but she is more determined than ever
most importantly thank you very for all the advice

Just to add for anyone looking at this thread in future, who is in a similar position to OP before the results…

I’d say that if a student didn’t achieve an 8 at GCSE Chemistry or Science, their chances of success in applying to medicine would be small. A 7 or 6 might be good enough to embark on an A Level in chemistry in many schools or colleges, but students with those kind of grades won’t be likely to be those who successfully apply to medicine. It’s great that OP’s DD got the grades she needed for JAGs and that her medicine dream is still live, as it were. However, if she had got the 7 or 6 OP feared, I’d suggest that she would have needed to be re-thinking medicine. It might have been that JAGS would take her for other subjects, or that she decided she really wanted to do Chemistry and went somewhere that would take her, but Chemistry at grade 6 just isn’t going to lead to a medical degree. It might be okay for a candidate to have an odd 6 at GCSE in a far less relevant subject, but it is notoriously competitive subject and stellar GCSEs in the key subjects are needed.

@WombatChocolate not true at all. For most Unis, once you pass the gcse threshold (usually 7 7s) they don't care. So having 10 9s is of no benefit. Some Unis do score GCSEs but lots just use UCAT.

Many many students go on to do medicine with 7s at GCSE.

@WombatChocolate I’m a doctor working in a medical school - I absolutely don’t think students who don’t get an 8 in Chemistry GCSE should abandon hope. Apart from anything else, we’re very aware that for students from some backgrounds that 6 or 7 may be a massive achievement against all the odds and may be one of the highest grades in their schools - JAGS undoubtedly sounds like an excellent school that gives their students a lot of support and that’s great - but it isn’t the case everywhere and widening participation is really important - we want our future doctors to come from every part of society.

Oh I apologise if I have given incorrect information. I have been involved in a number of schools and with careers and UCAS applications. In all cases, they have guided students that top grades in sciences at GCSE are a pre-requisite to joining their interest in medicine schemes. They have never said anyone required all top grades at GCSE, but every school/college has emphasised the need for a very strong academic profile overall and that the sciences and maths are particularly relevant.

I understand that there will be students who under-perform at GCSE due to all kinds of things….disruption of education, home situation, illness, schools which are not able to deliver consistent or higher level teaching,…all kinds of things. UCAS has a section for schools to declare those situations and special consideration given. I think people need to be aware of these and those who got a 6 because of a particular scenario need to know that they can still consider applying…..if they are likely to perform well in the various measures used to make offers. However, this won’t be the majority of students who have 6/7 in science GCSEs by any means.

I think it’s important that students do understand though, that for the majority who have 7s or certainly 6s in the key subjects at GCSE, they probably just aren’t going to have the academic profile for medicine. Suggesting to students that the doors to any career are open from any kind of academic record isn’t really helpful or entirely honest.

Widening participation is absolutely important. It needs to keep happening and further steps taken to help those who have the ability to find out about medicine and access it, who otherwise might have been excluded by all kinds of barriers. This isn’t the same as saying that anyone with a 6/7 in Chem has a decent chance of being offered a place on a medical degree. OP’s DD did not appear to have any particular scenarios which meant she had been disadvantaged and would therefore have good justifications for 6/7. In fact she appears to have a supportive family and indeed is accessing a highly selective independent school for 6th Form. If she has actually achieved a 6/7 in Chem, it woukd seem highly unlikely that the school would have been supporting her idea to head towards medicine.

Every year these threads appear. People ask how important top grades are. Well the reality is that applying is competitive and an impressive academic profile is generally expected. Yes, onsideration can be given for special circumstances as it should be, but in the main, high grades in the key GCSEs are expected by many places.

I’m not sure I’m particularly saying something different, but I bow to the expertise of those working and recruiting to medical schools and wouldn’t want to mislead anyone.

@WombatChocolate any student from any background only needs 7s. Nothing to do with WP. Then it moves onto predicted grades. Got those at AAA and UCAT is the only thing a lot of unis use to select for interview. Please please don't tell students they won't succeed if they have less than perfect grades. They really will.

Here's an exert from Sheffield - lots and lots of Unis state the same thing. There is no advantage to exceeding their minimum requirements (I've included these too). I apologise for reiterating this but so much bad advice is given to medicine applicants and people put them off by making them think they are not good enough, when they are.

And here are Bristols needs. I could do about 20 of these 😂😂.

That UCAT is what counts - Bristol is insanely high.

Thank you. Interesting info.

Do you also have stats about the actual GCSE and also A Level results those who get medical school place offers have? It would be very interesting to know what proportion who have the minimum requirements compared to the proportions who have much higher grades.

The thing that’s also interesting is how this info is interpreted and impacts different types of schools and colleges who are advising students considering uni. The concern seems to be that good students with lots of potential are being out off by schools from applying. That might be the case in some schools and colleges where strong students don’t have enough support or access to those who know about med school applications. But can I ask about what message schools and colleges should be giving where they are highly selective and almost everyone in the year group will have met those minimum requirements of 7s? In those places there is rarely a lack of aspiration and I have known places where there are more than 50 applications to med school per year and many more considered it. Those places know previous results and predicted grades etc are considered in the context of their school. They know someone with 5 7s might be at the bottom of their cohort and in almost all cases isn’t going to get a med school offer. They know that the profile of their students getting offers is 8s and 9s. So what should they tell their aspiring medics?

It’s a similar issue with Oxbridge. There are hugely different experiences and advice being given? How do the universities indicate minimum requirements to encourage those who are good but might not apply, and also send a realistic message about what’s needed to the places where far too many candidates might be interested and have the right GCSEs but who just aren’t that great?

So I know most people are focused on encouraging more applicants and especially from places which are under-represented. But what’s the message for those advising in selective state grammars and independent schools who know from experience which kind of candidates actually get offers?

@WombatChocolate all kinds of candidates hey offers, there is no distinct profile. And if a school is offering rubbish advice, ignore them ! Unis are very clear and honest about their requirements, but it's finding how they select for interview that's important. Pop to the medicine thread if interested as we try and help on there to make good choices.

@mumsneedwine is very knowledgeable so her advice will probably be better than mine!

It looks like some Cambridge colleges will accept English as a third A-level, although that doesn't mean it wouldn't put her at a disadvantage. Imperial seems to accept most A-levels as the third A-level. FWIW, DS did IB and his third HL subject was a humanity, although you do have to study Maths for the IB. The Maths course he took was equivalent to approx AS level standard. Oxford will accept English.

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/medicine_subject_requirements.pdf
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/courses/undergraduate/medicine/
https://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/study/medicine/pre-clinical/requirements/academic

Could/would your DD change A level choices at this point? Would taking Physics or Maths mean that it would be harder for her to achieve the grades she needs? I believe most med schools will accept those A levels. Your DD could write to the admissions tutor at Imperial and the Cambridge colleges that would accept English to ask if her A-level choices will put her at a disadvantage in applying so she can make a decision about applying strategically (or even changing A-levels if it is not too late).

Personally, I would say that as communication is an important skill for medicine, especially written communication for someone who is interested in an academic career, one essay subject with Biology and Chemistry is not a bad choice... Feel free to borrow that as justification for her choices at interview 😂

The recommendations for work experience are to get some experience of direct observation of healthcare roles (even if it is just online) and (more importantly) working/volunteering in a caring or service role with people who are ill, disabled or disadvantaged. That could even be helping a housebound neighbour or relative or babysitting for a child with additional needs. Retail is good too but your DD would need more than just that. I believe scouts/guides are also looked on as relevant experience, if your DD can't get a place with St John Ambulance. They don't need a huge amount of work experience. St George's always had the strictest criteria of 40 hours minimum but even they have dropped that since COVID.

https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-medicine/making-an-application/work-experience

I would also consider doing some supercurriculars, if your DD is aiming for Oxbridge and a possible academic career.

Long term, your DD might be interested in the Specialised Foundation Programme (it used to be called the Academic Foundation Programme) that is aimed at doctors considering a career as a clinical academic. Instead of 6 clinical rotations during the 2 foundation years after med school, 1 rotation is spent doing 4 months of academic research.