Independent schools v state

[purplerainbows88]

Hi all,
I am new here so forgive me if I breach any protocols!

I am starting to think about secondary schools for my DD who will be going into year 5 in September. I was state education and my DH went to independent schools throughout. He's anti independent! and I am undecided. I didn't have a great state school experience but I want to make the right choices for our DD. She's bright and artistic and very motivated so I wonder if we should be nurturing that in a smaller school with small class sizes OR saving our cash on the basis that she can thrive in most environments as long as she has nice friends and strong pastoral care.

Thoughts?

Aside from the endless threads on this already, you need to look at the school, not it's funding status. If you have money, you have choice. Look at state options and private. Choose based on your daughter's needs. Not sending your child private because you're 'against it', even if the school would be perfect for them and you have the money, is so stupid and something I'll never understand.

Ah thanks - will do a search for this topic. Didn't think of that!

You are right that the choice needs to be right for my DD - not simply based on principle. I am sure many private schools would be "perfect" in meeting all my daughters needs - but it was more of a broader question about whether there is something inherently different about a private school in terms of pastoral care/quality of teaching etc. Do schools like St. Paul's really offer something that's unique that a state school could not offer? I imagine that the main difference is being amongst students who are equally academic which may be a plus for a brighter student. I genuinely don't know.

My dd is at an independent and I work as an invigilator/exam scribe in a state school. Ime so much time at the state school seems to be spent on behavioural issues which must be frustrating for both teachers and students. There seem to be a great variety of activities, clubs, sporting opportunities in both schools. The biggest difference is the state school has 20% of students with additional educational needs and the resources are just not there to give the support required.

@purplerainbows88 , you need to visit a few schools to see the difference in facilities. The DfE gives a state school around £7.5k per year per pupil, a private school can cost £8-10k per term.
Have you put together a spreadsheet of fees with 10% inflation each year and 20% vat on fees from possibly 2026?

Find out if your local state secondary streams and in what subjects. That can make a big difference. Some have quasi grammar streams/top sets which means the academic kids are together. You can enhance her extra curricular interests outside school. What you want to avoid is any school where she gets ostracised for being good/clever etc. You can ask the question at open days.

I don’t know where you live and if you have several options. Where I live there are tons of state options, co-ed, single sex, streaming, no streaming, superselective grammar, normal grammar etc etc - the difficulty is getting your head around the differences.

Do schools like St. Paul's really offer something that's unique that a state school could not offer? I imagine that the main difference is being amongst students who are equally academic which may be a plus for a brighter student.

One of the pluses is, as you say, being surrounded by other very bright children. They can do lots of stuff outside and around the curriculum instead of being focused on just covering all the material. They do a lot of subjects to GCSE level compared to (some) state schools so everyone is doing 11 or 12. Some children, however bright, would definitely not enjoy this. It will not suit a girl who doesn't actively enjoy learning and who would not like to be going at a fast pace.

A top set in a comprehensive school won't be the same though it might be an equally good experience, depending on how your daughter copes with this kind of thing. It very much depends on your daughter's personality. A child going to a school like SPGS or another very high-performing school has probably spent most of their primary years at or very near the top of the class. Some children don't enjoy suddenly being surrounded by lots of equally clever children and becoming a bit ordinary. Some love it.

And St Paul's is a bit different from some of the other independent schools in that it's pretty liberal with very few rules. A lot of the others are quite strict from what I hear.

Schools in any sector can be so different from each other, in feel and ethos. I'd echo the poster above who said you need to look at the specific schools you are interested in and see what you think. There are lots of open days in the autumn term. Go along to some and see what you think! You might be surprised - I know I was.

Also talk to current parents of the schools you are considering, if you can.

Without knowing your unique set of circumstances and the local schools near you and only going on my own experience of having been to private school I honestly have nothing but positive things to say. The environment is incredibly nurturing and you're made to feel genuinely important and like all of the teachers and staff genuinely care about you and your future success. You feel valued and invested in. The small class sizes naturally help as does the exposure to a range of opportunities be it sport, music, drama, art, D of E, CCF, learning Latin! In my opinion (not having been to a state school I can't say for sure) but the experience is unparalleled. If you can send your daughter private I wouldn't hesitate.

That being said I'd be interested to know your husband's reasons for being anti-independent school having been to one. I know some people, often boys, actually can find it quite pressured and intense. You know your daughter best so can decide whether the long days, potentially Saturday morning school and rigorous exam preparation would suit her. But of like you say she's bright and artistic I'm sure she'd flourish. Best of luck with your decision.

Most state secondary schools are under enormous pressure these days. Funding has been cut so any additional staffing has been cut, for teaching assistants etc. Teacher recruitment and retention is low across the sector, so many subjects aren't taught by teachers with degrees in the subject. Classes are being taken by supply staff regularly. Classes are combined and taught in huge halls to cover the lack of staff. Subjects are being cut, with fewer choices for languages and some creative subjects cut from the curriculum entirely. School trips happen less often if at all, as teaching staff are under too much pressure to be willing to go on them. SEND numbers have increased significantly since Covid, with no funding or staff to support it, which diverts attention away from those without high needs who are left to get on with things. Behaviour has gone downhill, particularly since Covid, but perhaps also influenced by social media. The cost of living crisis is having an impact as students are turning up to school hungry, and experiencing anxiety about the household finances, and staff resources are used to provide social support, leaving less time for actual teaching.
Bright students who would once have thrived in any local school are being let down and are less able to excel under these circumstances. You will get anecdotes from parents whose children did fine in state comprehensives years ago, which is an entirely different situation from today, and the next few years.

Private schools have some of these issues but can mitigate it with increased pay offers for staff, smaller class sizes, and selection. Some of the financial pressures might improve if Labour get into power, but they can't produce more teachers out of nowhere.

I sent my ds for taster days at each possible school (state and independent), and I went to the open evenings.

We reached the same conclusion independently.

If money is no object for you, it really doesn't matter what the funding model is. Focus on which school suits her personality and academic needs best.

What kind of state school are you referring to OP? A normal comprehensive or selective grammar?

In terms of the presence of very high ability bright students as well as high "expectation" parents, some of the top selective grammar will have the same environment as private school like St Paul's.

But as some PP pointed out the DfE cost about 7K per pupil per year (and for grammar will be less, about 6), private school like St Paul’s will cost about 30k per year. So it does has reflection on some difference some where, which is hard to measure and really depends your DDs suitability.

Look at grammar, private, comprehensives, coed and single sex schools.
Talk to current parents or kids there within last 3 years. Schools do have a reputation but based on old data or experiences would not be helpful. Check out those with new heads, since there could be changes on the way and not all are great or good…maybe even dire.
Look at leavers destinations and subjects, some top performing ones are more humanities whilst others have less top universities but more STEM or medical courses or overseas destinations. STEM in universities seems to be based on module and course focus not just brand names. If performing arts, check conservatoire or art schools, drama schools entries.
Check number of GCSEs being taken, some schools have high level of A but only takes 8 whilst others are 10, 11, 12. So is your DC just aiming for top marks or like to study more subjects.
Do you prefer Year 7 separate sciences or a combined sciences type of schools? Language options?
Check websites, go to open days etc.

my son in law believes one of the biggest difference is the lack of in class behavioral issue independent schools offer.
that's not to say all children are angelic but generally the teacher is able to teach with minimal disruption.
his 1980 state educational experience was dire.

I think there are three or four particular advantages that independent schools have over state, and behaviour is definitely one. There is typically less disruptive behaviour in private school and where there is persistent bad behaviour it can be ‘managed out’ (ie the child asked to leave). In a state school a teacher’s job inevitably involves more ‘zoo-keeping’, reducing the amount of teaching and learning that goes on. This will vary between state schools.

the other advantages are:

• small class sizes meaning much more individual attention. It state schools the teacher can only ever really ‘teach the class’. Where more attention is given it may understandably be to those kids that need extra help. It is easy for bright children to coast along and do ok but only ok, and not achieve their potential.
• better facilities and resources, and less frazzled staff, because budgets haven’t been cut and cut and cut again like in state school.

Also, if you have an academic child then it’s probably easier to find an academic independent school (unless you’re lucky enough to live in an area with selective state grammars - we’re not). This means the aspirations that the school has for pupils across the board will be high and it’s more likely that kids will see doing well as something to aim for rather than something you might be mocked for as not being cool.

That said there are of course some amazing, high achieving and nurturing state schools and some mediocre and dreadful independent schools. And things like bullying and drugs happen in all schools and may be handled well or badly. Hence the need to do as much research as you can on the individual schools around you.

Super bright kids are in the top few independent schools. Getting there is highly competitive, and a child has to be super bright to pass the 11+. Those schools have no problems with funding because there are more kids who want to get in than there are places.
However, the majority of private schools are not super selective. Most private schools struggle to survive these days as the rising cost of living has impacted even those parents who were on the border of affording private school fees.
If there is any point in spending all that money, it's probably only if a child is able to get into one of the top schools.
It also makes sense for SEN (Special Educational Needs) kids, as there are nurturing private schools where kids will get more attention than in state schools.
From my personal perspective, I would never send my kid to a single-gender school, and top selective private schools (as well as grammar schools) are often only for boys or only for girls. Additionally, I would like my child to learn about society as it is: with people from all backgrounds, including the poor, the rich, and everything in between. Top selective schools are expensive, and most kids in those schools have the latest iPhones, laptops, and are constantly competing to have the best of everything. I don't want my child to be raised as a materialistic person.

As others have said, do your homework and find out what the independent schools locally offer, what their ethos is and whether this feels like a fit for your DC.

Our experience was as follows: DC with late August birthday and nursery time in US joined independent pre prep reception year at 5. We had a good impression of the school based on previous pupil we knew and schools stated caring ethos. Different headmaster, different ethos. By Year 4: after diagnosis of minor physical difficulties, major op, dyspraxia diagnosis and ed psych confirming high IQ, we had had enough of a sporty school that really only wanted drillable types who fitted the route from this feeder school to the minor public school. The bright kids gradually left and those who remained in private education mostly went on to the 2 local independent schools that are basically private grammar schools. Both now co Ed but once a boys and a girls school. Main entry year at Yr7 not Yr 9 like the minor public school. Our DC was at the local primary for 2 years, got offered a place at one of the private grammars and on waiting list other but chose the state school route. We never regretted this as the school was amazing and now DC is at sixth form college a very high proportion of his old friends are there too.

So choose very carefully and be prepared to find some things a bit different from tote expectations.

Go and look at specific schools. My DH saw no need for Private until we visited our State option followed by 2 local Private schools.
He said if we could afford to why wouldn’t we send DD to either of the Private schools.
DH went to a very good State Secondary and had no idea of the contrast between some State schools and Private schools

@mastertomsmum I second this. I know state schools are in a dire financial state at the moment, but I still think many of them are far better at teaching than privates and I suspect this will stay for some time, until privates drop the liberal US model of child led learning. Privates are struggling with finances and recruitment too. So much comments on here about class sizes. This is such a myth now. Most popular London independents have 24-27 kids in their classes. My DD in a state school doesn't have more than 22 in any of her classes. I'm sure thats not the case in the whole school as she's bottom sets but still. She's in a class of 7 for maths, 9 for all sciences, 8 for DT, 22 for English with a TA etc. She's had the same teachers all year and a supply a handful of times. This is pure luck, other kids in the school aren't do lucky and this will be the case in privates too. So much depends on what year group and teachers your child ends up with, regardless of type of school.

@Hoppinggreen Remember that of course their open days will be far better than state ones. This doesn't always equal better learning. It's very difficult to decide but don't be fooled by the marketing. That's a large part of their business model.

We had opposite experience. Went to Hampton Boys convinced that we will have to compromise with the single sex private...and then we went to co- educational state, voluntary funded Catholic school and decided that both schools are equally impressive with new facilities and great teachers. Actually there are few great state schools where I live.

I wonder where is the 20k anuual funding difference?

Visit all the schools - twice if possible. You need to pick the best school for your child, and that can easily be state.

i struggle with the choice because my secondary experience was awful. It’s taking a lot of thinking to separate my own history from the current decisin

Yes, this is our experience. A very positive experience at a state school with joint Catholic/C of E foundation. A lot of people there who had SEN so geared up to deal with others with more minor difficulties and handle stress etc. caused by COVID times

Of course but I knew all of the schools we visited anyway and it was a confirmation for me and an eye opener for DH.
Open days are there to showcase the school I think everyone knows that

I honestly wish that this had been our experience but I was pretty sure the State option was dire but I thought I would give it a chance.
Not everyone has access to a decent State option

A lot will depend on what your local offer is and your child's disposition, talents and needs.
It also will depend on what you prioritise in education. Some might feel their DC will benefit from smaller class sizes, others might like the curriculum freedom that independents have, others might like the longer days with prep time included so they don't have to do wraparound, others might want their children's school to have a range of enrichment, others might be concerned about behaviour and aspirations. That will all affect a family's decision.

Having worked in state my whole teaching career there are schools I'd send my children to in a heartbeat and know that the likelihood is they'll have a very positive experiences. There are others I'd not consider sending them to for a range of reasons.

There are good, bad and average schools in both sectors. Plus what works well for one child will not be right for another. You need to look at every option open to you and weigh up the pros and cons for your child as an individual. Don't make assumptions based on the sector.
I had a dire state school experience but my children have been to a state secondary which is better in almost every way than the local independents. My DH had a very happy time at his independent but I know other people who have been permanently scarred by their experiences at some of the most prestigious schools in the country. You really can't generalise.