Tiffin/Sutton/CRGS

[PinkPanda27]

Hello!
I seek advice/information regarding anyone's DC sitting entrance for Sutton, Tiffin or Colchester this coming Autumn (2023).
Has anyone experienced these entrance exams before?
How rigorous are they?
Would you advise tuition for your DC?
I am unsure what to expect as we have just relocated from Singapore.

Thank you.

I suggest you don't tutor for these entrance exams Bright children can get in without tutoring. Children who are heavily tutored for the entrance exams often struggle when they get there, or require further tutoring to keep up. Many are unhappy because they feel like relative failures, whereas they would thrive in a more comprehensive environment. If a child gets mediocre results from a grammar school (and many do) then it will be worse for their university prospects than if they get mediocre results from a comprehensive school. This is because top universities want to recruit the brightest children from a range of different schools in different areas and will quickly fill their grammar school "quota" with only the top tier from those schools.

There are many excellent comprehensive schools in Greater London, where your children will do very well if they have good support from home.

Hmm, that is the common sense advice from pp above. However it's a very unusual child who doesn't have some tutoring before sitting these tests. I think it's worth having a look at some past papers just to see where you are. It's fairly competitive and most people will do some preparation,

Can't comment on Colchester as that is very far from Tiffin and Sutton. Do you have boys or girls OP?

The vast majority of the children sitting the exams will be tutored.

Tiffin, at least, is extremely competitive - it would be brave to go in completely cold

@PinkPanda27 , have you spent time on the website elevenplusexams.co.uk in the forum section? It's unusual to sit Tiffin and Colchester due to the geographical constraints of Tiffin.

There are familiarisation papers for the Consortium of Selective Schools in Essex (CSSE) Schools on the CSSE website. The same exam gives a score which is used by CRGS, KEGS in Chelmsford and the Westcliff and Southend grammar schools. (Also for the Colchester / Wrstcliff / Southend girls' grammar schools - but no help to you if you are looking for a place for a boy, and three partially selective schools in the the Southend area, but also no good to you as the selective places there are ring-fenced by location).

Iirc, there is still no catchment area for CRGS (but they do give priority for a certain number of places to 'disadvantaged', for want of a better term, applicants. So it would be possible to apply for CRGS from somewhere in the Tiffin catcment area and succeed on score and move in time for year 7, but not the other way round.

Some places at Westcliff High School for Boys and Southend High School for Boys are open to OOC applicants, but the for the majority of places at both schools, priority is given to local applicants - that is, resident in the postcodes SS0 - SS9 at the time of application. The majority of places at KEGS are reserved for applicants living within a 12.5 mile radius.

where will you be based at the time of school application. Tiffin hasn’t gone out of the outer catchment area in years

DD is at a sutton and I think an understanding of the process is key. spShe has some tutoring (1.5 hours a week) so she got all the necessary concepts plus she did exam practices as well so she knew the process and is doing very well.

getting in without any tutoring is rare (and even more so none none and no at home help)

For Tiffin and Sutton Grammar ( I have no knowledge of Colchester) it is certainly true that the vast majority of children taking the exam will have been tutored.

And it is a competition for places. Put simply, the naturally bright child who can score a high mark without any tuition is going to be edged out by the less bright but tutored children who score higher marks because of that tuition.

It shouldn’t be that way but it is.

OP I live in the catchment for Sutton and Tiffin grammars and tutoring for these superselective schools is the norm. Many top set kids still don't get in even with tutoring, so have a good backup plan for state comprehensive or independent just in case. I respectfully disagree that "bright kids will get in without tutoring", this might be the case for areas with lots of grammars but not 2 of the 3 mentioned by OP.
My daughter is joining Tiffin Girls in September. I know many kids who did not get into the grammars who just got greater depth across the board on their SATs and end of year reports. They are very bright kids, but the competition is fierce and you need a bit of luck on the day too.
I can't comment on Colchester as it is quite far away so I have no knowledge of it.

Is there a particular reason you are looking at such different locations OP? Not everywhere has grammar schools (in fact, most areas don't) so if you are just looking for a grammar you might overlook some really outstanding state comprehensives and restrict your search more than you need to.

It's completely normal to tutor for these schools

For the greater London grammar area schools (including the outskirts such as CSSE), it is extremely rare to have someone got the place without any form of prep (tutor or practice).

And it is not unusual for family to have their kids sit at multiple 11+ tests even the schools are far apart - Tour De M25.

Of the three boys that went to Tiffin from my son's state primary, two hadn't been tutored. I think it is easier to get in without tutoring now than it used to be when the papers were purely verbal and non-verbal reasoning rather than English and Maths.

There is a massive tutoring industry, and people do jump on the band wagon. I suppose at least now that the Tiffin exam includes English and Maths the tutoring will have some wider benefit beyond one competive exam.

Neither of my boys applied to Tiffin in year 7 because we didn't want them to go to an all boys school. However, both went to state comprehensives, and then to Tiffin Sixth Form. Both were doing maths amd sciences and were in the top third of their sixth form classes, coming out with A-Star and A grades. So their comprehensive school prepared them just as well for good performance at A Level.

That is more than 7 years ago?

You will not get into Tiffin without some form of preparation. It is extremely competitive and there is an awful lot to do in the time on the exam. Your child will need to practise answering accurately at speed, because even if they get to the answer eventually, they will not score as highly as the kids who get to it faster and therefore complete more questions. That's what it boils down to because loads of bright kids are sitting the test.

Exactly. It is all down to the speed in the exam

>I respectfully disagree that "bright kids will get in without tutoring", this might be the case for areas with lots of grammars but not 2 of the 3 mentioned by OP.

Exactly. Bright kids will not get in without tutoring. These school are incredibly competitive to get in and throught the school duration. There is nothing special about teaching there. They don't have better staff than other schools and they receive less funding per pupil. There are many bright kids in this area. But those schools are not for just bright kids. Most of all the kid needs to be emotionally very resilient and competitive to thrive in those schools

My daughter is also starting at Tiffin girls in September. She did have some tutoring from the end of y5 to the exams themselves. It felt unfair not to give her some, frankly, primarily because she had at that point absolutely no experience of timed exams. So as much as anything it's about learning how to prioritise questions, move on quickly if you get stuck, etc etc. That requires practice regardless of how bright the kids are, in my view.

You always hear the odd "well my kid got in with no tuition" but I raise a sceptical eyebrow. I mean, I know someone who claimed that (kid in question didn't get through second round anyway) and it turned out what she meant was "no tutition outside of her private school where they are tutoring her every day for ages in 11 plus exams".

Horror story: she told me she met a girl at the first exam, was making awkward 11 year old small talk and asked her what books she liked reading. Girl in question said "I'm not allowed to read fiction books because my mum says I have to study properly".

Perhaps ask a question slightly differently, is one hour a week prep in total (tutor or practice) for 2-3 months enough for a average bright kid to get in school like TGS? That equal to less than 10 mins per day 🤔

There are about 120 places at Tiffin. Around 3500 kids took the test when my son sat. These are extremely competitive schools. Your child needs speed, familiarity, and a high IQ.

Unless at a prep school, it is unrealistic to expect even a hugely bright child to pass without some form of enrichment (even if not tutoring) eg they need to have somehow encountered the whole Y6 maths syllabus before completing year 6.

Once in, they are with a cohort of extremely bright, fast, motivated, high IQ kids… of course: those are the kids that passed.

Re tutoring, if by some fluke, an over-tutored child got in, who isn’t actually naturally quick and able, then it’s a hideous school life ahead, struggling to keep up. Don’t just think about the “prize”, think about the school career that lies ahead. Would a very academic cohort suit your child? Some children like being the “cleverest”. Now they will be just normal in their group, sometimes still shining, sometimes not at all. Sometimes a regular school, with the full range of abilities, or a more nurturing school is better. Plus, Tiffin has now been downgraded in its Ofsted report.

In practical terms: My child practised a paper a week (50 mins type), then this increased to one a day, I think, close to exams, in the autumn. But it was all his choice, and I think that made all the difference. Plus, he went to a very slow paced primary school, with no homework, so this wasn’t on top of loads of other homework.

3500 kids sit in the tiffin boys exam? Even historically outside catchment is unlikely to get in? That seems to too high to be true? Even superselective like QE boys without catchment will have just over 3000 exam candidates..

I thought it was - like the girls - about 1800 (roughly) each year, and for 180 places.

I think @Sodop has the numbers a bit off. There are 180 places for Y7 entry to Tiffin Boys. The number who sit the round 1 test is more like 1500, according to the head teacher. They actively discourage anyone outside the priority catchment from sitting because they have not recruited from outside it in years.

Sorry, you’re probably right that my numbers are all out! It was a few years ago and I’m currently ill in bed so probably shouldn’t post any specifics 😜. I may be blending and rounding up the total number for both tiffin schools.

I suggest you don't tutor for these entrance exams Bright children can get in without tutoring. Children who are heavily tutored for the entrance exams often struggle when they get there, or require further tutoring to keep up

I agree with everyone saying this is bad advice.

Even bright kids benefit from a little tutoring - becoming familiar with the more unfamiliar aspects of the tests like verbal and non-verbal reasoning, practising their English and Maths, and getting to grips with exam technique.

OP, while the GCSE state school league table (or attainment 8 score) is not a good measure to tell the quality of the school for your DC, it is always a good indicator of the difficulty of getting in these school in the first place, thus the higher the ranking the more prep/tutor is required.

Based on that with last few years league tables, in London area and surrounding, you can see

QE boys and HBS always at the top, then follow by TGS, Kendrick, Wilson, St Oli and Latymer, Newstead, CRGS, KEGS.

Then Sutton, Tiffin boys, Nonsuch and Colchester etc.

League table definitely sheds some lights on difficulty and odds.