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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Has anyone gone to court over attendance fine?

88 replies

Stclements115 · 10/07/2023 10:51

Just briefly (I can add more info if anyone is interested and can offer advice) - We had to take our son out of school for 5 days due to a self employed work clash which meant we both had to be away from home and had no choice but to take him with us- we informed the school beforehand and they didn’t authorise and therefore we have both received a fine. My husband feels very strongly that he wants to contest the fine due to our unique situation. This situation is very rare for us but as self employed people (in a cost of living crisis) there are rare occurrences like this where we cannot turn down work.
Eager to hear from anyone who has declined to pay fine and gone to court in a similar situation? Thank you!

OP posts:
Levi1982 · 10/07/2023 17:36

Thank you for your advice this is the first time posting

Whichwhatnow · 10/07/2023 17:49

Stclements115 · 10/07/2023 16:50

Because I wanted to enter into an informed conversation with my husband whose first reaction to this was that he didn’t want to pay the fine as he felt in our situation it was unfair. I was asking for past experience partly as I knew no one who had similar experience and partly so that I could talk to him and maybe help him to rationalise the situation armed with some gleaned real life experience. Because he wants to go to court and I don’t. This whole thread has turned into a bitch fest, I’m going to turn off notifications now. Thanks @BurscoughBooths@Theosfor responding with useful info, that’s really helpful. @Anyfeckinusername thanks for not joining the witch hunt! @ArnoldBee we are actually in the process of registering :)

Were you already in the process of registering your DS as a traveller child when you took him out? If so you might have a defence - have you raised this point specifically?

I know that many of my friends and family (we are 'new travellers' and many of my friends are either English travellers, 'new travellers' or 'showmen' as defined in the guidance) do not have to pay fines for taking their kids out as and when needed provided they comply with the rules regarding overall attendance but I'm not sure if they have all been fully registered before doing so (I don't have DC myself).

Whichwhatnow · 10/07/2023 17:52

Foxesandsquirrels · 10/07/2023 17:02

What crap. GRT are protected due to the nature of their culture. There's no such protection for others as the nature of their culture doesn't require them to travel.

Show quote history

The traveller exemption covers 'new travellers' and showmen/circus people. It's not just those who are ethnically Irish travellers or Romany. As above, my siblings' kids and many of my friends are exempt from fines due to this.

butmumineedit · 10/07/2023 18:01

Stclements115

Am guessing his attendance is quite poor as in under 90%. As most local authorities won't fine if it was just a one off - or have you had a holiday this academic year before this leave of absence ?

Kingsparkle · 10/07/2023 18:24

Do people have to prove in any way that their lifestyles are nomadic to register?

EduCated · 10/07/2023 18:27

Anyfeckinusername · 10/07/2023 16:29

(I'm not "having a go" at you at all when I say this)

I am occasionally in a similar situation although not self employed but I am the sole source of income to our family.

My comment is, I don't have cash problem - I can pay for the childcare, but trying to access childcare that will take over for a few days is nigh on impossible where I live. It took an eternity to find a nanny a few years back and I went through agencies and childcare.co.uk (resulted in nothing). It's not at all as simple as it sounds.

OP I feel your pain. I'm travelling for work in a couple of weeks and I begged for the offsite dates to be adjusted - thankfully work accommodated me and we travel the day after school breaks up - kids are coming with me. I've got family at the offsite location who will help. I've no family in the U.K. (I'm not British) and their British dad is now absent.

I just wanted to say, it's sometimes not the money that's the problem, it's finding someone suitable that's can be a much bigger challenge!

Show quote history

Absolutely. I made the comment a little flippantly, but that’s largely what I meant - overnight childcare isn’t exactly easy to come by, and finding a short term nanny isn’t something you can do at a drop of a hat, so paying long term for a nanny or au pair or similar is a hell of a lot more expensive (especially if you don’t need it 90% of the time).

It is shit, but there are many people where the childcare options largely boil down to a parent staying home (regardless of how unaffordable that is in the long term).

I disagree with the fairly automatic nature of the fines, and the lack of discretion given to head teachers, but realistically under the existing system, a £60 (or even £120) fine is the cheapest solution for OP and her husband, assuming that they still made income from the period of work away.

noctiscaelum · 10/07/2023 18:44

If OP wanted to be informed to go into the discussion with her husband, this thread would have been great for OP. No one has experience to share, because there aren't many(or at all) successful stories. She should be happy to say to her dh, everyone said just pay.
But instead she gets angry and (passive?)aggressive.

Just pay. You got payed for your work, right? It's just stupid to argue the small fine and get fined even more.

ohmustyou · 10/07/2023 18:49

There's no register of ethnicity, it's not Nazi Germany, new age travellers and showmen don't get a badge.

Travel for work is different to a holiday.

Kingsparkle · 10/07/2023 19:03

@ohmustyou - is that in response to me? Because if so you have inferred the completely wrong thing from my question. I meant register with the school and was genuinely interested as it opens up a lot of opportunity for people who want a more hybrid approach to schooling/homeschooling.

saraclara · 10/07/2023 19:10

This thread had to be a winner for number of posters who've demonstrated am almost complete lack of comprehension skills.

From the OP:

My husband feels very strongly that he wants to contest the fine

Frequency · 10/07/2023 19:11

I considered it. DD lost her Dad very suddenly last summer. She was alone in the house with him at the time and had to do CPR on his dead body while she waited for the paramedics.

She missed a bit of school due to grief and trauma. Her attendance was around 83%. It wasn't all in one go, rather a few days here and there, usually around a "first" occasions eg her first birthday without her dad, his birthday, father's day, the day we sold his house, etc

I was livid that the school fined us under the circumstances. I still am. I think it is utterly heartless and cruel but CAB advised I would be unlikely to win the case and would be better off just paying the fine.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 10/07/2023 19:16

Just pay the fine and move on. You are both self employed. Which means you both chose to work away that week at the same time and keep your child off school. You actually have more choice than the average family on this.

BillyBraggisnotmylover · 10/07/2023 19:20

butmumineedit · 10/07/2023 18:01

Stclements115

Am guessing his attendance is quite poor as in under 90%. As most local authorities won't fine if it was just a one off - or have you had a holiday this academic year before this leave of absence ?

Not really the case anymore. The DfE expectations post covid are much tighter. Our LA will fine for one day’s unauthorised absence

noctiscaelum · 10/07/2023 19:33

saraclara · 10/07/2023 19:10

This thread had to be a winner for number of posters who've demonstrated am almost complete lack of comprehension skills.

From the OP:

My husband feels very strongly that he wants to contest the fine

Yeah, I get that. But then why she feel so upset that everyone telling her to just pay? If she just wanted to pay and wanted to convince her dh, this thread is very much on her side.

I think I agree with other people's take that she wanted to contest to pay. Otherwise it just make no sense why she gets so aggressive.

Belltentdreamer · 10/07/2023 19:42

Frequency · 10/07/2023 19:11

I considered it. DD lost her Dad very suddenly last summer. She was alone in the house with him at the time and had to do CPR on his dead body while she waited for the paramedics.

She missed a bit of school due to grief and trauma. Her attendance was around 83%. It wasn't all in one go, rather a few days here and there, usually around a "first" occasions eg her first birthday without her dad, his birthday, father's day, the day we sold his house, etc

I was livid that the school fined us under the circumstances. I still am. I think it is utterly heartless and cruel but CAB advised I would be unlikely to win the case and would be better off just paying the fine.

God that sounds so tough on both of you. Hope you’re both doing ok. Shameful of the school

TheLurpackYears · 10/07/2023 19:46

Pay the fine, leave you H stewing. How could a self employed couple afford the time it would take to take this to court?

Silkierabbit · 10/07/2023 20:01

Frequency · 10/07/2023 19:11

I considered it. DD lost her Dad very suddenly last summer. She was alone in the house with him at the time and had to do CPR on his dead body while she waited for the paramedics.

She missed a bit of school due to grief and trauma. Her attendance was around 83%. It wasn't all in one go, rather a few days here and there, usually around a "first" occasions eg her first birthday without her dad, his birthday, father's day, the day we sold his house, etc

I was livid that the school fined us under the circumstances. I still am. I think it is utterly heartless and cruel but CAB advised I would be unlikely to win the case and would be better off just paying the fine.

I am so sorry Frequency to the appalling way you and your daughter have been treated and the loss of her Dad. I had cancer and chemo etc and our school were beyond awful with DS with SN but your school have taken it to another level again.

Jammything8 · 10/07/2023 20:06

No experience of a court fine but if this is your 1st time it seems very extreme and just for 5 days too?
I have never been fined and we holiday during term time each year sometimes twice. Just pay the fine what is the point dragging it to court having to take the day off work and upsetting yourself? It's £60 just pay it.

SueVineer · 10/07/2023 20:30

Frequency · 10/07/2023 19:11

I considered it. DD lost her Dad very suddenly last summer. She was alone in the house with him at the time and had to do CPR on his dead body while she waited for the paramedics.

She missed a bit of school due to grief and trauma. Her attendance was around 83%. It wasn't all in one go, rather a few days here and there, usually around a "first" occasions eg her first birthday without her dad, his birthday, father's day, the day we sold his house, etc

I was livid that the school fined us under the circumstances. I still am. I think it is utterly heartless and cruel but CAB advised I would be unlikely to win the case and would be better off just paying the fine.

So awful @Frequency so sorry for your loss and your dds trauma.

These fines are so ridiculous and unfair.

Kirrrriii · 14/12/2023 11:48

Can I ask for advice of my own please?

I have received a court order as I couldn’t afford the fine I’m currently paying £400 a month toward council tax debt so so much of our income goes to that.
I of course will be pleading guilty as I did take my son out of school for a holiday and I know there’s no point fighting the courts. What’s the amount I’ll be looking at fine wise and does it have to be paid in 1 lump sum?

thank you

nowordz · 14/12/2023 12:57

Kirrrriii · 14/12/2023 11:48

Can I ask for advice of my own please?

I have received a court order as I couldn’t afford the fine I’m currently paying £400 a month toward council tax debt so so much of our income goes to that.
I of course will be pleading guilty as I did take my son out of school for a holiday and I know there’s no point fighting the courts. What’s the amount I’ll be looking at fine wise and does it have to be paid in 1 lump sum?

thank you

Only advice I can offer you is not to go on holiday during term term, and not at all if you're in serious debt! Holidays are a luxury, not a right. What were you thinking?!

You also might also be better off starting your own thread rather than using this one.

Kirrrriii · 14/12/2023 13:23

The holiday was paid for as we went with family. It wasn’t a massively expensive holiday that we spend endless money on we only spent money on food like we would have done with our weekly shopping at home anyway

WheelySquirrel · 14/12/2023 15:14

@Kirrrriii Magistrates will take into account your means (there is a form specially for this) so any fine should be manageable. You will also be able to pay off any fine in instalments (you’ll be asked what you can manage - the minimum expected for e.g. someone on benefits would be £20 per month as a guide) so don’t worry about having it immediately available. However a court debt is a priority debt so you’d be expected to prioritise that over other debts. If you’re in difficulty it might be worth talking to Citizens Advice about debt management and how best to structure payments etc.

Bluevelvetsofa · 14/12/2023 18:00

I believe, some years ago, someone on IOW took it to court and refused to pay the fine. He was wealthy I believe and took his children out for a holiday.

You ask if anyone has experience of contesting a fine and I think the answer is probably negative, because it’s cheaper to pay the fine than pay court fees on top of the fine.

Since you speak of the cost of living situation, it’s probably in your interests to pay the fine now and put it behind you. Although it’s a rare occurrence, it might be a good idea to consider childcare alternatives, should you find yourself in this position in the future.

prh47bridge · 14/12/2023 19:02

Bluevelvetsofa · 14/12/2023 18:00

I believe, some years ago, someone on IOW took it to court and refused to pay the fine. He was wealthy I believe and took his children out for a holiday.

You ask if anyone has experience of contesting a fine and I think the answer is probably negative, because it’s cheaper to pay the fine than pay court fees on top of the fine.

Since you speak of the cost of living situation, it’s probably in your interests to pay the fine now and put it behind you. Although it’s a rare occurrence, it might be a good idea to consider childcare alternatives, should you find yourself in this position in the future.

The parent on the Isle of Wight is already mentioned on this thread. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court where he lost.