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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 29/06/2023 18:28

Haven't read but my gut feeling is:
There's more to education than grades.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Bright children can come out with a stream of 7-9s at Comps let along grammars, which are free....

WhimHoff · 29/06/2023 18:29

Behind a pay wall , what does it say?

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:06

Basically lists the fees that have better fee/grade ratios. Unsurprisingly mainly in the North and Wales and then filter down to the West Country etc. And the 'top' ones are day schools.
So send your daughters to Withington School for girls as fees are low. The train fares from London in particular would add up though!

ChocChipHandbag · 29/06/2023 19:09

So when they say “outperforming Eton” they actually mean “getting about the same grades as Eton, but for less money”.

Is there any info at all about the other things the fees pay for apart from grades?

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:11

Will try and copy..

It doesn't really mention state schools!

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:14

Can't manage to copy but it is a pretty useless article. States rather obviously that Eton, Harrow etc offer much poorer cost/ grade ratio but doesn't mention the fact that they are boarding schools.

Hoppinggreen · 29/06/2023 19:17

Not everyone pays Private school fees to get better grades

andona · 29/06/2023 19:19

Strikes me as not only pointless, but also unhelpful, in that just increases the perception that schools are exam factories and that education is all about results. Parents at the expensive schools are not paying for exam grades - they could get those for free at a grammar. They're paying for facilities, enrichment and opportunities .

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:19

I think it has tried to 'estimate' day fees at some boarding schools but they are very high- eg £46k for Eton.

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:21

Eton, Harrow and Winchester may be the most famous names in the English private school system – but it is lesser-known schools that are providing a better academic return on fees.
Telegraph Money’s analysis compared the fees charged by schools with their results at GCSEs and A-Levels to uncover the highest-performing schools for the best price.
Withington Girls’ School in Manchester came top of the pile. The school, which costs £14,676 a year, saw 93pc of GCSEs and 88pc of A-Levels taken by its pupils marked at the top grades last year.
The £14,460-a-year St Michael’s School in Carmarthenshire was the highest ranked co-education school in the country, with 88pc of GCSE grades marked at nine to seven and 80pc of A-Levels receiving A* to A.
Meanwhile, the City of London School tops the list for boys’ schools, with over 90pc of exams receiving top marks at both GCSE and A-Level.

The analysis – which does not assess factors such as extracurricular activities or the quality of facilities – is based on 2023-24 day fee prices compared to grades from the summer of 2022.
School fees are adjusted to account for regional variations in wages.
Where schools have not updated their fees, The Telegraph has estimated them using data from previous years and assumed an average 7.1pc annual increase.
Across almost 400 fee-paying English private schools offering A-Levels and GCSEs, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunaks’ alma maters, Eton and Winchester, appear halfway down the list.

In terms of fees versus grades, Eton – which has educated 20 prime ministers – ranked a 242 on the list.
Other well-known private schools with long reputations for excellence, such as Winchester, Radley College in Oxfordshire and Marlborough College, ranked much lower compared to cheaper schools whose students achieved better grades (see table below).
Larger, historic private schools like these often have higher expenditure than their smaller counterparts. This is because they have older, listed buildings to maintain, and have much higher staffing costs. Eton alone employed 50 members of staff who earned over £100,000 a year in 2022.

Amid a prolonged cost of living crisis, and with rising mortgage rates and inflation playing havoc with household finances, families are likely to pay even closer attention to school fees than normal. And fees are still rising – especially at the larger, better-known schools.
According to data from School Fees Checker, a website, and wealth manager St. James’s Place, private school fees – which stagnated during the Covid-19 pandemic – jumped 5.1pc in 2022, up from 4pc from the previous year.
This means that, even if a parent earns a six-figure salary, they could struggle to afford many private schools, according to Alexandra Loydon, SJP’s director of private clients.
“Spending money on private education is often seen as the best way to set your children up for future success. But if you thought choosing the right school – and getting in – was hard, the scale of the fees and the financial commitment required is enormous,” she said.
Despite the cost, demand has remained high. The latest Independent Schools Council census shows there are 544,316 pupils at its member private schools, up more than 8pc in the last decade, a record high.
Pupils at independent schools represent about 7pc of all pupils in the UK.

ISC chairman, Barnaby Lenon, said: “Independent schools take a much wider view of education than just exam results. Boarding schools in particular offer a wide range of activities outside the classroom and subjects inside the classroom.
“What is more, parents understand that a great education these days means much more than marginal differences in exam results.”

ChocChipHandbag · 29/06/2023 19:29

This means that, even if a parent earns a six-figure salary, they could struggle to afford many private schools, according to Alexandra Loydon, SJP’s director of private clients.

I wonder if Alexandra’s statement is based on an assumption that the parent would want to be privately educating more than one child. I have an only child and I naively expected my son’s independent school to have quite a few other onlies there, perhaps more than in a state school. Was amazed to find that 3 kids seems to be the average rich person’s family size!

Countrymiles · 29/06/2023 19:30

Most parents nowadays I know send their kids private because they want more than just academics - small classes, good facilities, more sport and excellent pastoral care — so this doesn’t surprise me at all.

I went to a GDST school and our facilities were much worse than the local state secondary schools, but they got outstanding results (for what in the independent sector was very low fees). The focus was very much on getting to GCSE and ALevel grades.

ChocChipHandbag · 29/06/2023 19:34

Amid a prolonged cost of living crisis, and with rising mortgage rates and inflation playing havoc with household finances, families are likely to pay even closer attention to school fees than normal. And fees are still rising – especially at the larger, better-known schools.

I find this so tone deaf! Yes, there will be a. parents paying for private school who are feeling the pinch but they are in the minority and hardly the biggest losers in the Financial crisis (and will probably weather the storm by shopping in Tesco rather than Waitrose for a year or so). This is why I would never pay to go behind that obnoxious rag paywall.

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:36

I didn't pay- free trial! Which I will then cancel!

ChocChipHandbag · 29/06/2023 19:37

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:36

I didn't pay- free trial! Which I will then cancel!

Sorry it wasn’t meant as a dig!

thenewera · 29/06/2023 19:41

@ChocChipHandbag - I know! And I agree with you- most of the parents at our independents won't be massively struggling! ( although some of the many bursary students families may be).

andona · 29/06/2023 19:42

The Times and the Telegraph make me laugh. They've both gone really private school bashing, we're down with the people recently. But read their lifestyle pages, and they're stuffed full of Rolex adverts and the latest fashions in Scandi kitchens and articles about the best place to winter. There was a travel article in the Times a few weeks ago about the best luxury self catering properties, and they all cost over 100 grand a week. A week!! It's all bollocks - they're totally hypocritical and just trying to score political points by jumping on a bandwagon.

explainthistomeplease · 29/06/2023 19:46

Pointless article because according to very many MN parents who pay private it's absolutely not about the grades. Oh no it's all about the enrichment and diversity ;)

BumpyaDaisyevna · 29/06/2023 19:49

? So some schools charging less get better results?

Is this because, charging less, they attract many more potential students than they have places for? So they can then choose the very brightest - who then go on to get the best grades?

In short, the lasses at Withington are just brighter than the lads at Harrow?

andona · 29/06/2023 19:50

@explainthistomeplease But it IS very often about the enrichment! Why would you pay to get straight As from a private school when you could get straight As from a grammar, or from private tutoring? Why do you find that an unlikely reason? Lots of good state schools produce great results, particularly if they're academically selective. What they often don't have is massive playing fields and swimming pools and theatres and concert halls.

andona · 29/06/2023 19:57

BumpyaDaisyevna · 29/06/2023 19:49

? So some schools charging less get better results?

Is this because, charging less, they attract many more potential students than they have places for? So they can then choose the very brightest - who then go on to get the best grades?

In short, the lasses at Withington are just brighter than the lads at Harrow?

They're not necessarily getting better results, they're getting better results pound for pound. Presumably at least partly because they have fewer facilities and old buildings to maintain. If you've got hundreds of acres and cutting edge facilities, that's very expensive. Your A stars per pound is therefore going to be much lower, even if your results are the same.

GiraffeDoor · 29/06/2023 20:08

Huge chunk of fees at super posh school goes towards being super posh rather than teaching and learning. No shit, sherlock.

1dayatatime · 29/06/2023 22:52

@andona

" Lots of good state schools produce great results, particularly if they're academically selective."

+++

If you have a selective state school/ grammar with very good grades then lots of parents will want to send their children there.

This mean there are a lot of children chasing a limited number of places with a very selective entrance exam. This then means that the children who do get in are the cleverest of the bunch who then produce good grades and then lots of other parents want to send their children to that school and so on..,

Hoppinggreen · 29/06/2023 22:57

explainthistomeplease · 29/06/2023 19:46

Pointless article because according to very many MN parents who pay private it's absolutely not about the grades. Oh no it's all about the enrichment and diversity ;)

For some of us it’s about not sending our children to a school that’s in Special Measures where even some of the teachers there told me not to send DD

TizerorFizz · 30/06/2023 00:23

DD 1 passed to go to a grammar. We chose private boarding. Results are not the only aspect of schooling. She had more of a bespoke education and was able to join in with activities that really suited her. She wasn’t rejected or balloted out when clubs and activities were over-subscribed. It was better for her.

I’m not sure her future career was a feature of this school though. She’s pretty unique in what she does (in terms of fairly recent old girls) . However, whilst at school, she made friends with boys from one of the schools mentioned above via siblings and socials. The boys were ambitious. She was spurred on by them. By what they talked about. I’m not convinced she would have been exposed to her career at our local grammar either. Maybe but maybe not. We will never know!!

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