Puzzling Rules and Treating Pupils with Respect

[RaggyDoll84]

Hi all,

I am new here and I'm just wondering if anybody else has had similar thoughts or experiences with their child in secondary school and shares the same concerns.

My daughter is in year 9 and is well-behaved, never in trouble or anything like that, but some of the things that she tells me or I am aware of about her school just don't make sense to me or seem like the teachers are asking the pupils to treat them with respect but do not necessarily provide a good example of how to do this.

There are some rules which don't make sense to me, such as even in Winter when it is freezing cold, pupils have to carry their coats inside between classes and are not allowed to wear them in the corridors. With a backpack and possibly ingredients for food tech etc. to carry, this just seems like it's making things more awkward for an unclear reason. Also, the kids aren't allowed to take off their jumpers if they are too hot. I can understand this to some extent when in school as they are all the same and may get lost or mixed up, but even when the kids are walking to their parents' cars or the bus and leaving school, if they take off their jumper because they are too hot, there are teachers around making them put it back on just to walk to rest of the 10 metres to the car or bus. This bothers me because it's basically telling the kids their comfort doesn't matter and an adult should be able to just tell them to do something which results in actual discomfort of being too warm in hot conditions. There are also other things, like they were previously allowed to wear plain black leggings under PE shorts in cold weather, but now they have to be the school branded ones which are much more expensive. If they are already wearing a school polo top, fleece and shorts, why does this even matter?

It also sounds like teachers go from 0 to shouting as soon as a child talks or similar, which I feel teaches kids this is the way to get people's attention and also that it is ok to deal with issues this way. She has also told me stories of teachers accusing pupils in front of the class of something right off the bat, such as chewing gum, and then when they are wrong there is no apology and the child is chastised for disagreeing when they were falsely accused in the first place.

I know teachers deal with a lot and that there has to be rules and discipline, but I think rules for the sake of rules actually makes kids less likely to respect them because they don't understand why they are in place. I also think that the teachers should respect the pupils as human beings, not just speak to them however. There were never any of these issues at primary school and I'm wondering whether this is common or specific to this school.

Any input is appreciated!

It sounds like your child's school has a zero tolerance policy for uniform transgressions. It means they will be picking up on every minor rule breach. The idea is that it improves overall discipline. I expect some people have published something to say it works, and others have published simething to say it doesn't.

Unfortunately, as teachers are human, some will do discipline better than others. The ones that are shouting are not good at it. The best thing to do is explain this to your daughter in a way that can help her empathise with the teachers - it's not an easy job.

Our school has a "no coats inside" rule too. I think it is so that the uniform is visible. The logic probably goes something like - if they let one student wear a coat because they have lots to carry, then they'd have to let all students wear coats, then how would they be able to tell students apart from teachers, or intruders? Also, the coats are not a standard style/colour, then the crowd of students will look like a rabble, so be more inclined to act like a rabble. I know it sounds bizarre. Maybe you could write to the head and ask them to explain it, but don't expect more junior teachers to be able to do so - they are just following the rules like they're told.

At our school, jumpers are optional. That decision was made when the uniform policy was created. If your policy says they're not optional, then that's why students are being told to put them on. Hopefully they relax the policy in hot weather but, if not, maybe they need to change it.

If you plan to write to the school, my only advice (speaking as a school governor) would be to be very polite, respectful and reasonable in your tone, and acknowledge how hard they work and how thankful you are (even if you don't feel it right now) - then you'll be more likely to be listened to, not put on the "rude parent" pile. Don't organise a petition. And if encouraging other parents to write, be careful to only ask the unaggressive, reasonable ones and space them out so they appear spontaneous rather than a "campaign".

My child’s school is the same. They have to wear a jumper unless told they can remove it. If they don’t they get inset (detention!) They also have to keep ties and jumpers on outside of school gates. It was 28 degrees yesterday….

They don’t have branded PE shorts but everything else is branded (and expensive.)

The teachers on occasion swear (not acceptable) and shout. My child made a complaint about it and did get an apology after a blanket shouting session where the tutor called pupils “stupid idiots.”

Honestly is horrible and such a change from the primary environment.

The other unacceptable thing was them allowing children to eat in the rain while they sit in comfort indoors. Due to inadequate seating indoors! Ridiculous. Anyhow I could rant all day 😬

Half the teachers at the school probably think the rules are stupid too OP.

I taught in colleges and schools on supply, so I think the uniform rules, particularly at 16+ are ridiculous. As someone who doesn't do heat I had a blanket, "If you are hot you can take your blazer off without asking" rule. I wasn't supposed to.

I would raise the issue of jumpers but I would do it as a health and safety issue, in this weather they risk over heating.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth my school actually had a different school uniform for summer. When I started it was dresses but then they changed it to an open necked blouse which was an option from Easter to September.

She has also told me stories of teachers accusing pupils in front of the class of something right off the bat, such as chewing gum, and then when they are wrong there is no apology

That's generally because the kid who was chewing has swallowed the gum rather than put it in the bin.

Uniform stuff sounds petty. Have you asked the school for the reasons?

Teachers going from 0 to shouting doesn't sound like a school behaviour policy though, it sounds like a generalisation from maybe a minority of teachers?

Secondary schools are short of teachers. There will be lots of supply teachers and inexperienced teachers and teachers who may not be good at their jobs because no one else wanted it. Kids in secondary schools in general are not getting a good deal right now.

Hopefully your DD has some good teachers though, did you ask her about those?

i can understand a school uniform policy, but if it’s going to be ‘jumpers on unless the weather is hot’ then doesn’t the school have to respond promptly to move to the hot weather rule when it is, in fact, hot?

I sympathise. I have a daughter currently in year 11 and sitting her gcse exams who is contending with the rule against taking jumpers off even in this heat, even whilst doing external exams.
However in fairness discipline at her school is reasonably good overall and she likes that - finds it means she can concentrate and focus on lessons which she mostly enjoys. So it possibly has upsides too. What I do know is that I would hate to be a secondary school teacher, it looks such a tough job!

Our school has similar rules and I can usually think of a reason that it's there but they do allow them to go to school without blazers when there's a heat wave after a number of parents complained. Last year they let them go in their tshirt and shorts pe kit all day when it was 40 degrees. They should be able to take their jumpers off in lessons if they make sure they're back on before they leave to prevent them being left behind or leave them at home. I'd definitely email them about that and focus on the health side of it, plus how well are they going to be able to concentrate and learn if they're boiling hot?

I think for the coat one as with the branded uniforms it's to stop bullying over branded/designer items. We even had this in our primary school where they brought in logo pe kits because parents were sending kids in with branded tracksuits for pe, even being asked not to multiple times and then children being bullied for having standard shorts and tshirt. The logo pe kits were still expensive but not as expensive as the branded tracksuits. For blazers and jumpers it's probably to stop them going missing or kids purposefully not wearing it then claiming that they "lost" it. Tracking down lost property or issuing detentions for kids not wearing proper uniform is just more work for teachers and more time wasted.

As PP said, secondary schools are severely understaffed, DS' school is constantly asking for teachers and DS has had quite a few supply teachers and even one lesson when nobody turned up at all! We haven't had a problem with his teachers and he really likes the majority of them but I've seen a number of other parents and kids complaining. I do think some kids exaggerate a lot and I think teenagers in general tend to be a bit dramatic. I've seen parents complaining about something their child has told them happened at school and when I ask DS about it he has a different, less dramatic version. However, I think every school has the odd nasty teacher.

There are so many differences between primary and secondary I just don't think you can compare them at all. Secondary is a much much larger scale and teachers don't know all pupils personally, they can't tell who the good ones and bad ones are. I've said to my son before, you might think it's unfair to get a detention for being late because the bus didn't turn up but there will have been plenty of kids using that as an excuse to muck around and be lazy. They don't know who's telling the truth and who's not. The teachers he doesn't have for lessons don't know him and don't know that he's a good kid so I tell him not to take it personally. I usually write in his planner or message school so they know he's telling the truth. Kids are going through puberty/hormones, peer pressure and they have less supervision so their behaviour is worse than it was at primary. The kids at DS' primary that were badly behaved are now 10x worse at secondary.

You might prefer a school where they aren’t very strict OP but the risk is that the behaviour in that school is awful.

This. Secondary schools at the moment are by am large awful when it comes to behaviour. The more awful the behaviour, the higher the staff turnover.
I would second the advice you've already had. Write a polite email just acknowledging the importance of uniform and that you're grateful they are trying so hard, but you wonder if there is a temperature where kids are allowed jumpers off as your DD is struggling.
Similarly, ask her about the good teachers, she will likely have some. Generally speaking no one wants to teach Y9. They are known as one of the most problematic year groups within the secondary years, alongside Y10, and it's likely that's why the school is so strict on them.

It’s such a shame as when I went to school we had a different uniform for the summer. They were polo tops with a logo and no tie. They had to buttoned up but they looked smart and were breathable fabric.

Perhaps it’s the additional cost but it must be hard for children to concentrate with no air con in this heat.

It is very likely for the behaviour to be awful in the school where pupils are required to follow silly, petty, humiliating rules.

Omg our big city comp normally insist on blazers. Jumpers optional,
Hot weather - all told bring blazer but prob won't wear in class.
PE Shorts are ok and no ties. Ditch jumpers. No issues

I think all school should have a PE kit that can double as a 'summer uniform' so not a tiny skort but knee length shorts and a polo shirt would work.

As a primary teacher I get so frustrated with children asking to remove their jumper and spend so much time explaining that they need to take personal responsibility for taking jumpers off when hot / putting jumpers on when cold. It seems very strange to me that they’re not given the same autonomy as they get older. That said, I do understand the whole ‘being strict on the small stuff helps deal with the big stuff’ idea.

Might be worth harnessing the power of the “note”
kids can get away with virtually anything if they have a note from mum.

Id write a note for her to keep on her that says “little x is prone to overheating and becoming dizzy, please allow her to remove her jumper when she needs to.”

maybe follow it up with an email to head of year saying what you have done, frame it as a medical issue and they will probably just leave it.

most teachers think these rules are ridiculous too and constantly battling them takes away so much valuable teaching time.

I wonder if it started because they had a ridiculous amount of jumpers in lost property? I know in my dis’s primary it used to be an issue. They then got rid of the lost property rail and any uniform left behind goes into the uniform sale. The issue seemed to become far less 😅

My nephew overheats and it makes his attitude change and become frustrated due to his eczema. I can imagine him struggling with this at secondary. A note is a good idea. I know at my Dd secondary it always has to be a doctors letter though 🙄

DD3's school has a policy that they have to wear jumpers from October half term to Easter. They are optional outside that period. But they always have to wear blazers, unless we are specifically emailed to say that the weather is hot and blazers are not compulsory. In that situation, children are not allowed to choose to wear jumpers instead of blazers. It's either shirt only, shirt she blazer, or shirt, jumper and blazer.

DD3 has a 'uniform pass' to say that she can go without the jumper during the compulsory period because of sensory difficulties.

I know this is an old thread but OP does not seem to realise, neither her daughter,t hat teachers don't make rules, they are just made to enforce them. Complain to the head about stupid rules, not Mumsnet.