Work Experience Discrimination?

[Charliesunnysky10]

My Y10 daughter wants to go into aerospace engineering, specifically, working at a large employer 10 mins drive from us. She has applied twice to be part of their week-long work experience programme run 3 times a year for Y10 & 11 pupils, but has been turned down both times, despite being able to demonstrate her strengths and interest in STEM subjects. On both occasions she followed up with a letter to ask if they could give feedback as to why she has not been selected and if they might reconsider for the next programme as this is the only place she can get experience to help her apply for an apprenticeship (over 60% of their apprentices knew someone in that business already). They didn't reply on either occasion but I reassured her it's down to sheer volume of applicants.
She called twice apparently also but was put through to a vm with again, no response. My friend has recently left this company and told me they only offer work experience to pupils from 2 local high schools - she attends the grammer school slightly further away, that doesn't have this link. This seems a bit unfair, as he also told me many of the 60 they give work experience to each year are reluctant and have no interest aerospace - the school apply on their behalf because they've not found anywhere else to go, and the current 60 places aren't taken. He gave me contact details for the admin who offers the placements - he doesn't know who makes the actual decision though. The details are the ones my daughter has contacted without success. I'm wondering if it's worth me calling to check on this policy and if there's any flexibility. Or if there's another way?

Well if they are not taking applications for a girls school you might want to ask them the reason for their discrimination.

I found this, it lists start ups in Lancashire, if she can't get the work experience she wants maybe she could approach any of these she can get to.

https://www.aerospace.coffee/post/15-top-aerospace-startups-companies-lancashire

@Charliesunnysky10 I cannot comment on this company but your DD is seriously limiting her options if she wants an apprenticeship at 16. If that’s what you mean? I would think the firm doesn’t expect 16 year olds from a grammar so doesn’t have links? Or are you talking about a degree apprenticeship? These are hugely sought after.

Aerospace Engineering is often studied at university to MEng level. Nearly every employer will take uni grads. I also think limiting herself to one employer is making life difficult. A degree gives far more flexibility.

Even after a 4 year full time MEng course, DD will need to spend around 4 more years becoming a Chartered Engineer. Getting Chartered when working and studying part time is a massive slog. You must have a masters level qualification . So she really must look at the Engineering Council to appreciate the differing levels of engineering qualifications. A BEng degree leads to Incorporated Engineer. Not the highest level. So do look at what is required and what she aspires to.

There are initiatives for women in engineering. I would try and get work experience in any engineering discipline. Consultant engineers are a good start. Or any manufacturing company with in house design. Try not to be fixed on one company.

Women in Engineering Society info attached. Look at BAE systems as well.

Work experience is a major PITA for employers, it costs a significant amount to provide places. Many employers will have close relationships with one or two reliable schools that they trust not to send timewasters (I'm being open and honest here, this is in no way a reflection on your daughter). They won't be exclusively looking for those interested in aerospace because they not every role in the business relates to aerospace. Not all the placements will be for engineering.

Speak to the school and ask if they have an Enterprise Advisor. These are volunteers from the business community that help schools and colleges engage with businesses, including for placements. If they have an EA that person may be able to make an independent approach to try and get your daughter a placement and/or may be able to give feedback on her applications.

There are also a number of separate organisations tasked with STEM engagement in schools. Approaching one of these may help with another route to get the placement she wants.

And don't overlook tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers into the main aerospace employer, they may not be as oversubscribed for placements.

@DogInATent @TizerorFizz @sashh can't thank you enough for these replies and the wealth of useful info there. I've passed it on and she's also very grateful.

Write directly to their CEO.

In this case it's probably better to write to someone less obvious, who gets fewer letters in the post at work and who is more likely to open their own mail and read it.

• Search Linked-In for someone at the employer with either a connection to the school (alumni) or another non-work connection in common. Write to them.
• Write to a Department Manager for a department that does something the child is particularly interested in or knows something about. A letter showing some research and knowledge of the work of that department might intrigue them and make them realise she really is interested.

If you do this send the letter in a card with a coloured envelope, so it looks like a birthday card and write 'private to be opened by addressee only'.

Even better if you have a young child write the address and you add the 'private...' in adult hand writing.

Really? The CEO of a large public engineering company is going to open a letter because its labelled "top sekrit" with purple ink?

As I read the OP the problem is not discrimination on the grounds of being female, its simply that her daughter's school doesn't engage with work experience effectively or provide appropriate support for pupils wanting the apprenticeship route. Her issue should be with the school.

The links to women's engineering groups will help her find her own apprenticeship and engage more effectively with the school.

OP: is your daughter looking for degree apprenticeships? If so your school should be ashamed of themselves and they are an excellent route into science and engineering, particularly for girls and disadvantaged pupils. You might want to reconsider her sixth form options if they are so narrow minded in their outlook.

Around 50% of all apprentices are women. 9% of engineering apprenticeships are taken women. You also have to consider how many of these 9% are doing degree apprenticeships. Very few probably. The number that actually become Chartered Engineers will be vanishingly small. We use the word “engineer” very loosely.

I did my work experience with the RAF by contacting the closest RAF base directly. Is that an option? It might have helped that I was already and air cadet.

In fact a quick google shows a number of opportunities for work experience at RAF based, also try the navy.

@C8H10N4O2 She doesn't want to attend their sixth form for this reason - and the fact they have an uninspired A level provision.

Yes, it's a degree apprenticeship she's seeking. She wants to take Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry & Physics at A level.

I am disappointed by the school's lack of industry links but it's the nepotism that seems to be widespread accepted which saddens me most.

Just as she is overlooked for not attending their partnership schools, other students who aren't well-connected are missing out and industries are also missing out on new talent. I get that recruiters want easy/cheap wins in recommended people but that doesn't mean they're the best fit candidate.

Its not nepotism to have partnership schools (and from memory RR partners with state schools in the area mostly - not sure if that has changed).

As pp upthread say - there is a significant cost to organisations to run these schemes. Your issue is not with RR, its entirely with the school not engaging with the apprenticeship and work experiences schemes. That isn't RR's fault.

Instead of blaming the firm for the school's limitations focus on finding a sixth form which does have a partnership with engineering firms and a strong track record of getting pupils into such schemes. Write to the target firms to ask which schools they partner with and tell them why. You can't change what has happened, you can only influence the future.

One thing regarding A levels - most firms providing apprenticeships will say the same as universities - three top grades is better that four nearly top. Pick three of those subjects to focus on (and unless she is absolutely top of top in Maths I'd drop FM from that list).

@C8H10N4O2 Good advice thank you again. They tend to opt for 4 with a view to dropping a subject in the first year, so coming out with 3.

@Charliesunnysky10 It is certainly the case that degree apprenticeships will be very very competitive. However quite a few engineering companies do state they take a healthy percentage of women. I think it’s a huge mistake to get fixated on one employer. There are lots of schemes and lots of employers. She really should apply for a MEng degree alongside the apprenticeship route. MEng is often a quicker route to getting fully qualified. It’s vital to look at all options.

So would she change schools to get the industry link? Y10-11 work experience doesn’t mean much but what do the other schools offer in the 6th form re industry connections? Or are they more focused on non degree apprenticeships? Most companies take apprenticeships from all over due to high levels of competition.

Its really frustrating to find the school you chose for the best reasons has a hole exactly where you need cover. Find a good sixth form or college and you might well find that local STEM/WIE groups can help with a bit of extra experience along the way for the CV.

Large companies tend to have a particular focus on diversity for degree apprenticeships - both sex and other forms. I know that HR find our degree apprenticeships do wonders for our social diversity stats because we attract bright working class and minority kids who might not otherwise go to university as well as 50% female.

Re the further maths - a year of further maths is fine and can help with maths and physics but don't be tempted to take it beyond that year.

This sort of shenanigans will likely get your letter shredded out of hand these days. Coloured envelopes/paper hasn't done anything for the last twenty years except mark candidates out as thinking themselves a bit special and almost certainly going to be a problem down the line.

Who's still handing out this crap advice? - I'd hope it's not schools.

Yes, she will almost certainly switch schools for sixth form as the current one falls short in a number of key areas.

@TizerorFizz when you say "Most companies take apprenticeships from all over due to high levels of competition" I wasn't sure what is meant. Forgive me, I'm new to all this - it will just be my brain not processing it 😁

On which protected characteristic do you think she’s being discriminated against?

Having partnership schools is common.

Where are you getting the “60% of work experience placements know someone on the business” statistic? If it’s from your friend, how have they verified this. Did they work in HR for the company and require that every applicant divulged that info?

I work for a large STEM org- we had over 1,100 applications for work experience. It’s exceptionally competitive.

This is super advice. A Google of women in STEM networks might lead you to some LinkedIn suggestions for people in her target companies. She should set up a LinkedIn profile and try to build up a network that way. Would her form tutor/year head write on her behalf too?

BAE STEM work experience & apprenticeships, might be interesting.

@Daisy62 Only suitable for work experience if you live handy enough. The apprenticeships are very sought after. As you would expect. However they take 44% women which is very high.