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11+ London private & grammar - How to improve on speed / timing issues?

41 replies

ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 08:50

My DD will be sitting the 11+ for indies and grammar in the autumn (2024 entry). She's bright, very high CAT scores, is on track (according to her current prep Head) for SPGS / Tiffins / G&L etc.

We're aware, however, that she's just not working as fast as she'll need to for those exams (eg CEM Select being 138 questions in 60 mins). She recently sat an external mock and only got through 60% of the maths questions (despite saying she found it quite easy. She acknowledged she was just working quite slowly).

Everything I read says that there's a really careful balance to be struck between working on timings and stressing your child out: that too much focus on timed practice can not only cause undue anxiety but also diminish their performance because they feel stressed and end up making silly mistakes.

I'd be really grateful for any tips / advice from anyone who's successfully been through the 11+ on how to (gently) work on speed / timing without creating undue stress. Thanks!

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SamPoodle123 · 24/05/2023 09:30

I would say it probably just takes practice. My dd will be going to G&L in September. We did not apply for Tiffans or SPGS. We focused on Atom learning because most of her exams were similar format. She only had one written for another school. What we did was see what her mock scores were summer before year 6 and then we made a decision on what schools to apply to. She had the scores to apply for SPGS, but we decided not to, as I wanted a more nurturing school for her. Anyway, if she knows how to do the maths, just put her under timed conditions and keep practicing. I had my dd do the written mocks twice just before the exam for one school (she only had one written exam). By then she was already able to do it within the time limit. Her tutor once a week had her practice her speed technique.

Outnumbered4321 · 24/05/2023 09:36

Hi,
I just wanted to reassure you that being a bit slow on timing now doesn't mean she'll necessarily struggle in the exam.
My dd was similarly slow at this point in her preparation- high accuracy but sloooow and not getting through enough of the paper. She's starting TGS in Sept.

Her tutor gave her some extra maths papers to practice over the summer and I bought some extra examberry ones and she just practiced with a timer. When she ran out of the time, she completed the paper in a different colour pen and then we reviewed and redid any mistakes. She got faster.

I think sometimes they are so keen to avoid mistakes they take forever trying to be "perfect". My dd was also overly concerned with the presentation and neatness of her workings. Legibility is necessary but equal spacing and size is overkill!

Exam craft is a balance of speed and accuracy. Once she believes in herself a bit more through practice, she'll gain speed.

I didn't think my DD would finish the TGS maths paper, and was surprised when she did with 5 minutes to spare! I also know girls who've got in despite not making it all the way through, you don't get to see any scores but I assume they were highly accurate on the ones they did complete and got through enough of the paper.
A bit of practice under timed conditions and it will come together, you have time ❤️

ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 09:53

@Outnumbered4321 Congrats on your DD getting a place at TGS! We've got friends in Y7 there who absolutely love it, so I hope your DD is really happy there.

That's really helpful - thank-you so much. The idea of working with a timer just to see how much you get through and then finishing the rest is a great idea.

My DD, like yours, is quite a perfectionist, but then makes silly mistakes if she's rushed. Hence trying to get the balance right.

We're not using tutors as we assumed (falsely) that her prep school would get her fully prepared. And we haven't done excess prep at home so far. So we basically have the summer to try to get her up to speed. How many timed practices a week do you think is sensible (without overloading)? I don't mean full mocks / practice papers but even shorter tests eg 10 mins tests in CGP books or custom practice on Atom?

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ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 09:54

@SamPoodle123 Thanks so much for this. So your DD was doing timed practice once a week? I'm not even sure how a tutor teaches speed technique?!

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SamPoodle123 · 24/05/2023 12:19

@ThePlacesYouGo I will have to ask my dd, as I am not sure what exactly she was doing with her tutor. I was always busy with my youngest and trying to keep the other two dc quiet or out of the house during her sessions (zoom group sessions). But from what I understand they would do math and English during the sessions and it was in a group. My dd joined late (end of May year 5) so I think by the time she joined they were just going over exam techniques and covering any gaps, plus doing practices. I do remember the tutor mentioning dd needing to speed it up. My dd has been known to be distracted at her school and taking her good old time for things. But that is more head in the clouds type thing. When it comes to exams she tends to be more focused and she did well on the 11+

I would say if you are worry about time, then practice can only help. It is the same for times tables. The school wants to test the kids (year 4) and they need to be timed so they asked they practice it (at least the dc that need to practice it). So they asked the kids practice it often before the test. My ds already knows them quickly, so does not need to practice. I had already prepped him before I even knew about the school exam, as I know for the 11+ they need to know them quickly to do the math fast. So I spent a few days just going over them w flash cards to make sure he was quick.

PreplexJ · 24/05/2023 12:30

Regular practice with time limit will help, and review common pattern of mistakes. You will see it improve overtime.

BonjourCrisette · 24/05/2023 14:03

Hello, my DD was a bit like this. She ended up with offers from Tiffin and St Paul's (several years ago - now in GCSE year).

All I can recommend is explicitly teaching your daughter how to pace herself during an exam. Sit down with a past paper and talk her through it, showing her how to spot higher mark questions (which will take more time), how to allocate time for questions and then let her sit down and practise what you have just talked about within the time which she would have for an actual paper.

She should make a habit of reading the whole paper before she starts - very often the harder questions which frequently lurk at the end have more marks attached. If you were to do something like this once a week or so I am sure it would help.

Exam technique in general is well worth breaking down for your daughter. What looks like common sense to an adult is often not at all obvious to a 10 year old!

ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 14:20

@BonjourCrisette That's a really great idea, thank-you so much. We've talked about the "high value" questions being at the end of a comprehension paper, and the importance of scanning the whole paper at the beginning, but we're quite early in the process of that at the moment so haven't done any full past papers yet.

I think maths is more problematic for her with timings tbh. Up until now she's been really good in timed conditions (on stuff like the PMC) and has managed it well, but seems to be slowing down. We don't want to stress her out by just saying "you need to be quicker" but.... we need her to be quicker!

DH wondered about just giving her short bursts of timed practice eg 10 mins and just get as many of these maths questions done as possible, just to start getting used to working more quickly without the pressure of a whole past paper / mock etc. Wdyt?

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BonjourCrisette · 24/05/2023 14:40

DD was the same and maths was harder for her too. She almost always understood and got the right answer but was sometimes very slow.

A ten-minute session to work as fast as you can probably wouldn't have been what I did, tbh. It was the harder multi-stage questions where a lot of reading and thinking was required where DD was slow. Breaking down how to tackle this type of question can be useful. These are also the questions that it is important to be able to do as they are specifically in the papers to try and distinguish between candidates. But I don't think there's any harm in a ten min session like that if you feel like it would be something DD would enjoy. And I see your point that it's less pressured which is always good. Why not? Give it a go and see if it helps!

PS DD did not finish the final Maths paper at St Paul's and still got a place because she did very well on English and Comprehension (the weird one, which she absolutely loved). She found the Tiffin exam a lot easier than St Paul's. Can't comment on G&L.

PreplexJ · 24/05/2023 14:41

@ThePlacesYouGo I dont think it make much difference on doing 10 mins vs a full mock (about 20-40 mins depends on school?)

Just need to regular practice to develop sense of pace and eliminate silly mistakes. And also know how to let go time killer questions for some time intensive tests.

FYI, DD got offers from all private school applies last year (including SPGS).

ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 20:27

@BonjourCrisette Interesting that your DD found Tiffins a lot easier than SPGS. I'd kind of assumed it would be the other way around. Although it's a relief, having seen the SPGS sample papers!

I think my DD will love the Comprehension paper too. I haven't shown her a sample paper of that yet, but I described one of them to her and she thought it sounded great.

I think we're just trying to strike the right balance between focusing on honing confidence with the content (which hopefully will then help the speed anyway) but not leave timed practice too late. Some people have told us we should be doing a lot of time practice already, others that we should be focusing on learning for now and worry about speed at the end of the summer.

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ThePlacesYouGo · 24/05/2023 20:30

@BonjourCrisette I'm also interested how you prepped your DD for the CEM Select exam. DD loves VR / NVR / mcq comprehension, and she's generally strong at them all, but I know the CEM Select is very very time pressured. Is it just about doing CEM mocks on Atom to get them used to how much they have to get through?

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PreplexJ · 24/05/2023 20:32

Don't think spgs did CEM select test that many years ago. As for maths paper difficulty, grammar and private have very different focus. Difficulty of the paper by no means mean indication of difficulty of the pass level.

BonjourCrisette · 24/05/2023 21:25

Is that the computer pretest thing? If so, yes, she did it. I didn't do any prep for that. She is very logical and likes a puzzle so I just let her get on with it. I did say don't get hung up on one question, and if you aren't sure then try to rule any answers that are impossible out quickly, pick an answer, and then move on.

I don't know your daughter but I guess you can probably tell if she needs content or if she needs more practice with timing. You know her best!

There are a number of other SPGS parents on here who may have advice about what you could do at home to prepare for this, though, if they did anything that might be helpful. @HighRopes may have words of wisdom!

DD absolutely loved the Comprehension paper.

I did try to make it a low stakes process for DD. I told her it would be hard and it would be absolutely no reflection on her should she not get a place. And I tried to present the exams as a fun day out of school and advised her to just enjoy the day and not worry about it all. They do try to make the exams an enjoyable day, which is not quite so easy for the grammar schools with the sheer numbers they have to cope with.

PreplexJ · 24/05/2023 22:42

OP has striked all the right notes on the mum of West London Prep top set DD that preparing for the SW 11+ top schools: Aware of the exam format, external CEM select mock 6 months in advance, cautiously not having the past paper or full mock for DD to do at this stage. Try to balance between timed performance and undue anxiety but could also diminish their performance. Have gone through some essential exam technique for comprehension papers.

I sense the anxiety is possibly from the parent end.

There is some practical aspect to consider (in particular to maths subject) :

Grammar school like Tiffin first stage (DD didn't do Tiffin exam but we did sutton mock or similar grammar test) as well as CEM select exams, are multiple choice, timed pressure questions. Both exams are non adaptive and mostly equally weighted. These questions won't be extended questions like second stage papers. To get the best performance out of it is to get as much as questions that knows in a highly timely and accurate manner and don't waste too much time to few questions that stuck.

London consortium is also multiple choice but it is adaptive, so less time pressure but need to make sure no silly mistake for easy questions in order to achieve in higher mark.

Since grammar exam takes place first and then CEM select and Atom as first stage. It does make sense to improve speed, pace and accuracy on base / medium level questions as priority at this stage (including summer).

DD had done little maths practice until beginning of October last year as this is not our focus subject but this strategy did work in our favor for CEM and consortium test. Atom mock tests was our main practice ground (not customised test sets) we just randomly hit different schools (grammar or private) to practice.

We also did one CEM mock test 1 week before the actual test in end of Nov.

These efforts will not be wasted as it also build the good foundation for DCs second stage exam writing (typically happen in Dec and Jan for private schools).

In addition, although the CEM select past rate for SPGS (an other schools) is high (about 80% of the total applicants), it is unclear how much weight the result of this test will be taken account in the final decision. So no harm to try to get as high mark as you can.

As for the second stage, I think the schools (except consortium online) use written open format papers, in the paper there will be some extended "difficult" questions some where, normally the last two questions but not necessary so (SPGS make this easier as it divides the question into 3 different timed sections by difficulty). These questions are typical to identify candidates that has outstanding maths, not necessarily to be expected all qualified candidates to finish.

It is still, essential to finish the questions that DCs familiar with first. Since it is open format, writing down the steps and logical thoughts will help to get marks, but no need to overdone it, again only practice can improve this.

It is important to go through the exam techniques that bespoken to different type of tests above. But there is no need to spend too much time just talking about technique without actual applying it in a similar setting.

Be patient, progress take time.

ThePlacesYouGo · 25/05/2023 05:33

@BonjourCrisette Yes, timing is definitely the issue with her, hence the original question! But your responses have been really helpful so huge thanks for those.

We're similarly trying to make it low key for DD - we've told her there are a lot of bright girls around and you never know exactly what a school is weighting towards so just to do her best and that any additional learning she gains from the process will serve her well going into senior school, whichever school that may be.

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SummerIsComingLate · 25/05/2023 08:34

OP has striked all the right notes on the mum of West London Prep top set DD that preparing for the SW 11+ top schools: Aware of the exam format, external CEM select mock 6 months in advance, cautiously not having the past paper or full mock for DD to do at this stage. Try to balance between timed performance and undue anxiety but could also diminish their performance. Have gone through some essential exam technique for comprehension papers.

Extraordinary!

Mingomang · 25/05/2023 08:40

We used atom learning for help with the speed and timing. Just did about a month of it I think. You can analyse the answers and find out where you are dropping marks or taking more time. You have plenty of time to work on this so really don’t worry right now. If she’s secure in the content and reading a lot then you can just practice practice and she will absolutely have it down by exam time.

BonjourCrisette · 25/05/2023 09:22

I've been thinking about what you said about needing her to be quicker but not wanting to stress her out with telling her that and it has occurred to me that actually, I did say to DD that she needed to speed up. I did qualify it by saying 'I know you understand these problems and I know you always get there in the end, but you are only going to have quite a short time for each question in the exam and so I think you should practise trying to do everything a bit faster'. She wasn't stressed out by this. I think she took it as constructive feedback and did try (and definitely improved).

So maybe don't stress too much about telling her kindly and just see if she can take that on board? Unless you think it would upset her, obviously. I was fairly sure it wouldn't bother DD and she would just take it on board as a piece of info that she needed to know.

I don't think I was even aware of Atom at the time, maybe it didn't exist then, but it seems very popular now so may be helpful.

RedFluffyPanda · 25/05/2023 09:25

I beg your pardon but isn't it that CEM stopped this year offering 11+?
Aren't all grammar tests GL now?

PreplexJ · 25/05/2023 09:34

RedFluffyPanda · 25/05/2023 09:25

I beg your pardon but isn't it that CEM stopped this year offering 11+?
Aren't all grammar tests GL now?

CEM Select, is an online test version similar to CEM papers but not the same. It is mainly used as pretest for some private schools.

Yep, most of London Grammar switch to GL from paper CEM recently.

RedFluffyPanda · 25/05/2023 09:36

@Perplex

Thank you.

ThePlacesYouGo · 25/05/2023 09:49

Mingomang · 25/05/2023 08:40

We used atom learning for help with the speed and timing. Just did about a month of it I think. You can analyse the answers and find out where you are dropping marks or taking more time. You have plenty of time to work on this so really don’t worry right now. If she’s secure in the content and reading a lot then you can just practice practice and she will absolutely have it down by exam time.

Thanks for this @Mingomang. I know lots of kids are being forced to do hours of Atom every day (!) but that's not really our style so we haven't even signed up yet. That's really reassuring to know that you think a shorter burst or exposure to it can still be helpful.

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ThePlacesYouGo · 25/05/2023 09:51

BonjourCrisette · 25/05/2023 09:22

I've been thinking about what you said about needing her to be quicker but not wanting to stress her out with telling her that and it has occurred to me that actually, I did say to DD that she needed to speed up. I did qualify it by saying 'I know you understand these problems and I know you always get there in the end, but you are only going to have quite a short time for each question in the exam and so I think you should practise trying to do everything a bit faster'. She wasn't stressed out by this. I think she took it as constructive feedback and did try (and definitely improved).

So maybe don't stress too much about telling her kindly and just see if she can take that on board? Unless you think it would upset her, obviously. I was fairly sure it wouldn't bother DD and she would just take it on board as a piece of info that she needed to know.

I don't think I was even aware of Atom at the time, maybe it didn't exist then, but it seems very popular now so may be helpful.

Again, all very helpful and considered - thank-you!

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PreplexJ · 25/05/2023 09:56

Some prep school practice atom learning (or similar tests) during class hours.

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