Appeal Hearing tomorrow!

[SadRach76]

HI all so I have my appeal hearing tomorrow (feel sick at the thought of it)
I received the statement from the school presenting their case on why they cant admit any more children and just want to check what question are ok to ask at the stage 1 group hearing.
So the capacity of the school from years 7-11 is 1110
The academy anticipates that 936 pupils will be on the school roll in September 23.
In 20020/21 school lowered the PAN from 218 to 189
A table is also included with year groups and numbers of children anticipated for next school year 2023/24
Yr 7 189 Pan 189
Yr 8 182 Pan 189
Yr9 178 Pan 189
Yr10 187 Pan 189
Yr 11 200 Pan 218

Im not sure what the above means if anyone can shed some light?
Class sizes are 27 with 7 tutor groups (is this quite low for a secondary school)

And lastly it says groups for DT/Art/Food are class sizes around 20/21 (max permitted is 22)

We are at the bottom of the waiting list at number 6 so im assuming they will only be 6 appeals.

Also says due to funding issues 2 FTE staff have had to go and that's why cant accept any more children-can I question this?

sorry for lengthy email any advice anyone

TIA

The number of appeals isn’t necessarily the same as the number on the waiting list.

What those numbers show (assuming the first is pupils on roll and the second is the PAN) is that every year above Y7 is below PAN. So the school may well argue that groups for DT etc need to be capped at 20/21, but any general argument about the need to keep numbers down and avoid overcrowding becomes weaker because there are unfilled places in other year groups.

Hi @PanelChair thanks for the reply, I just assumed if you were appealing you would be on the waiting list but as you stated maybe not?
and yes I think that's the number on roll.
Am I ok to ask why they have reduced the PAN and if it's due to staffing I suppose that's acceptable on their part?
Thanks again for the reply x

Yes, I would expect appellants to have joined the waiting list but it’s not guaranteed.

By all means ask why PAN was reduced, but I suspect it won’t help you much. The fact there used to be (I assume) one more tutor group doesn’t really say anything about whether the school can accommodate extra pupils in existing classes and tutor groups.

Not everyone on the waiting list will have

1. Appealed at all
2. Appealed by correct date. Here appeals had to he in by 28th march. But new address evidence for the may offers could be until mid April. So someone moving in closer than you may be above you on the waiting list but not appealing.

All appeals have to be heard, even those submitted late. The disadvantage of appealing very late is that, if other appeals have already been heard and some have been allowed, the school will be more full and the bar for winning an appeal will be higher.

Indeed. I just know here they said if submitted after the end of march would not be heard until September.

Plus not everyone on the WL is appealing. So when you say you're number 6, it doesn't guarantee that those who are numbers 1 to 5 are appealing.

@beanhunter yeah I understand what you are saying and yeah I suppose could be some children on there that have moved closer!
Thanks for your reply

@PanelChair I didn't know this I thought if you did not get your appeal in before the deadline you had no chance.

@StressedMumOf2Girls Yeah be interesting to see how many appeals they is tomorrow then x

@SadRach76 I can’t help with the schools case, but it could be that there are children above yours on the wait list who won’t even take up a place if offered. My neighbour’s house is closer to our preferred school than ours and so her son will be above mine on the waiting list - I know she’s on it because she put the school as a preference and didn’t get a place, they were offered a school that wasn’t even on their list - but she has accepted a place at a private school for her son and so now isn’t interested even if a place was offered. I also spoke to the mum of a boy at my son’s school who is higher up the wait list than us (I know as she told me what number they were) and I know she isn’t appealing - though they might accept a place if offered. She is happy with the school they were offered but he is really keen to go to preferred school.
I know what you mean about feeling sick - that is how I am feeling right now, and mine isn’t until Tuesday.

@SuperSue77 I wouldn't wish this feeling on my worst enemy!
Yeah I know still could be movement and I suppose children on the waiting list could be appealing for other schools too so.
And who knows children may not turn up in September yet! or so I'm hoping!
I really hope your appeal goes well and wish you all the luck in the world x

Also says due to funding issues 2 FTE staff have had to go and that's why cant accept any more children-can I question this?

What grounds would you question this on? It's well known that schools currently have funding issues. Presumably losing the 2 members of staff means they have less capacity to accommodate an extra class?

You could question whether classes could acomadate an extra child?

As has been said, they aren't over capacity, so their only argument can be about capacity in that year group. The downside is that you can't argue they've gone over PAN in the past.

I teach in a pretty rural area and I know a lot of secondaries that are smaller than this one, I don't think they are abnormally small, and it seems like they may have had a falling roll for a while?

27 is on the small side for class-size. Most secondary school classrooms I've seen will hold 32 - 30 is the "usual" size (which allows space for a TA to sit down!), and PANs are often multiples of 30.
22 as a maximum for practical subjects means they've already got to split them into 9 for those, but could take another 9 kids without going over 22.

Having fewer staff: they will already have timetabled with that many staff. Obviously they can't take on extra pupils that will mean they need more staff, but extra pupils who fit into the already-timetabled classes don't affect the number of staff needed (just the workloads of the existing staff).

YEAHHHHHHHH We won OMG we are absolutely over the moon, the last 2 months of total stress and worry has all been worth it to see our little boys face on Monday!
So our appeal was upheld at Stage 1 as schools case was very weak and basically couldn't answer why capacity was not at its fullest and they were trying to argue that they could not accommodate any more children!
Unfortunately no representative from school was available and only had the rep from admission authority who fluffed up on a few occasions with wrong figures (tbh it was quite tough on her as she was unable to answer a lot of my questions due to her not being from school)
All I would say to people in my situation is to not give up question question question its what I did , remember this is your chance to try to prove them incorrect and it paid off for us!
Thank you to everyone who offered advice and tips its much appreciated and I will try and help others who are going through this horrific situation.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Hi I did question them taking another child and how would it impact to be told "if we take one then we need to take another and another"
Capacity was low across the school with 38 spaces free across the 5 yr groups.x

Congratulations 😀

@lanthanum yeah I argued and questioned the 20/21 in specialist groups when max permitted is 22 I used the real rubbish explanation of if a bus permitted 40 standing would you throw someone off if you had 39 standing? she said well...... I said well you wouldn't if you had 40 standing and one more got on then you would have to refuse! I could feel my hubby looking at me thinking what are you using that example for but it worked ha ha

Well done with your appeal outcome! So as your Stage 1 was upheld I'm assuming you didn't need to go to Stage 2?

We have our Stage 2 on 9 June :(

Congratulations SadRach76!

@Priyavk1 no we didn’t we recieved a call but even 5 mins after stage 1 had finished! Such a relief all I will say is throw as any questions at them as you can x

Well done

Thank you so much @SadRach76 , wishing you all the best and a relaxing summer