School appeal procedural question

autumnboys · 10/05/2023 06:40

I imagine there’s one each day. The panel has to decide if the school has made the case that admitting more students would be prejudicial to the existing students before stage 2. If they don’t make the case, your child is automatically admitted. You have the right to ask questions of the school about their case, which could take a while with 20 families at once. Finally, it means you only need to put aside one day, rather than stage one on the first morning and your own stage 2 on the second day. Hope it goes well.

Original poster

SuperSue77 · 10/05/2023 08:47

Thanks @autumnboys I assumed that is how it would work but I have heard of other schools having all parents in on day 1 for the stage 1 and then parents having to come in on other days for their stage 2. I suppose having three lots of stage 1 doesn’t matter as the panel hears all 3 and they’re unlikely to decide the school can take all 20+ places being appealed!
Thanks for the kind wishes, I am pretty nervous and it’s still 2 weeks away!

OP posts:

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 10:52

By the sounds of it, that suggests 3 stage ones, rather than 1. I've seen it happen both ways, but as autumnboys says, this way is often easier to manage and less disruption to parents.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 11:22

SuperSue77 · 10/05/2023 06:25

Our appeal is one of 20 odd being heard over 3 days. We’re the middle day and have been told stage 1 will be in the morning and our individual hearing in the afternoon. Do you think that means they will have three stage 1 hearings, one each morning for all the parents being heard on that day? I wondered whether the parents across all 3 days might be invited to the stage 1 on the middle day, but presumably they can’t hear stage 2 hearings on the first day without having heard the school case beforehand? I just wondered if anyone was familiar with this way of running it? TIA.

Hi @SuperSue77

I had our appeal yesterday, there were over 20, so stage one was heard yesterday morning and all parents who wanted to attend that did so.
Really use this to ask your questions and try to pick holes in the school's case (respectfully! - A lot of parents yesterday were quite rude or aggressive, which really isn't on given the panel do this voluntarily. I can't see that going in their favour, as you meet the same panel at the individual meeting.
You won't be allowed to ask any more questions re school at your individual hearing, so write it all down and ask at this stage. Or you can email them in.
I did email some in, and they were read out by the Clerk for me, but I had a few more which I did ask myself.
School couldn't answer some of my questions, but that was okay.
The panel retired, but came back pretty quickly to say the school had demonstrated a good case, so stage two would go ahead.
I think this is what they have to do, else if they'd dismissed school's statement, everyone would then have automatically been given a place.

I was super nervous, I did not think I would be able to do it, especially as hubby was not able to go with me due to his work commitments (I do suffer a little anxiety, but I knew it was my one shot so I was determined to stay and fight for my child).
I then had a 3.5 hour wait (no point driving home to go back again, so I found a coffee shop and set about reading through my files to refresh my memory!).

I then had my individual hearing, and because my written appeal was so comprehensive, we just addressed the main points - I think the panel did a silent phew at that point!
The panel were a delight, and really tried to help me.
They asked about my child so they could see him as a real human being, they asked about his strengths and what he enjoys.
We went over the main points, and I felt I was given enough time to explain clearly.
They had read my appeal and said they would read it again.
I did apologise for the length of it, as they said it's the most comprehensive one they'd ever had 😅
They seemed to really listen to me, and took on board the issues my child has, and I questioned if they thought I had enough supporting evidence from professionals, which they stated I had.
I look back and wish there are certain things I had said, but as long as they do read my written appeal, it is all in there anyway.
We had a bit of a laugh, and the panel members gave me instances of their own children who had similar issues to my son, and with the right help in the right school, they have flourished.
That was very kind of them to say so, and it gives me some hope that I might just win the appeal.

I made sure to thank them for their time, and was respectful.
And for taking the time to read through what probably equates to something similar in length to 'War & Peace'.

It wasn't nearly as stressful as I thought it might be, so all that worry leading up to it wasn't necessary, but obviously I didn't know that.

As there are face to face hearings today, and Zoom meetings tomorrow, the panel won't be deciding until Friday, and I will know one week later if I've been successful or not.
However, they did say (and I double checked) that each appeal goes on merit alone and is not compared to any of the other appeals being heard, which is a comfort.

So fingers, toes, and everything crossed.

I really hope this has been of some help to you, and I hope your appeal goes well.

Original poster

SuperSue77 · 10/05/2023 19:57

@NatM70 thank you so much for all this really helpful info!! It really is invaluable
and reassuring. It might help some
other so will tag them @Lor123 and @HighHeelsHurt

OP posts:

Lougle · 10/05/2023 20:22

"However, they did say (and I double checked) that each appeal goes on merit alone and is not compared to any of the other appeals being heard, which is a comfort."

@NatM70 are you sure you understood this bit correctly? If the panel decides a school can admit, say, 5 children, and there are 20 appellants, they do need to compare the relative strengths of the case of each appellant in order to make a decision about which children should be admitted. They can't just admit everyone who has a strong case.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 20:40

Lougle · 10/05/2023 20:22

"However, they did say (and I double checked) that each appeal goes on merit alone and is not compared to any of the other appeals being heard, which is a comfort."

@NatM70 are you sure you understood this bit correctly? If the panel decides a school can admit, say, 5 children, and there are 20 appellants, they do need to compare the relative strengths of the case of each appellant in order to make a decision about which children should be admitted. They can't just admit everyone who has a strong case.

I can only state what I was told, and I did double check this, and the panel confirmed.
My husband was there and he witnessed this being said.
They stated each case goes on its own merit and is not compared to anyone else's.

The school has admitted up to 20 over PAN in previous years.
20 over, 10 over, and 15 over for current years 7, 8, and 9 respectively.
In Y10, an exception, they admitted 40 over PAN, but that was due to them increasing numbers due to demand.

The projected number on roll this year allows for 48 more places but that's for all years.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 20:44

SuperSue77 · 10/05/2023 19:57

@NatM70 thank you so much for all this really helpful info!! It really is invaluable
and reassuring. It might help some
other so will tag them @Lor123 and @HighHeelsHurt

Hi @SuperSue77
You're very welcome.
I know how much I worried and how anxious I was, so if I can try and alleviate that got anyone going through the same, I will do.
I don't know if we have won, but I feel so much better having gone through it and having the reassurance we got from the panel.
Good luck with yours!

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 20:52

On the subject of comparison, the appeals code is quite clear - comparisons between cases cannot be made when deciding if easch case outweighs the schools case, but must be made if more cases outweigh the schools case than can be admitted - as Lougle says,. So I can see how confusion could arise. So comparison may not happen, if not enough cases outweigh the schools, but can (and must) if too many do.

"3.9 In multiple appeals, the panel must not compare the individual cases when deciding whether an appellant’s case outweighs the prejudice to the school. However, where the panel finds there are more cases which outweigh prejudice than the school can admit, it must then compare the cases and uphold those with the strongest case for admission. Where a certain number of children could be admitted without causing prejudice, the panel must uphold the appeals of at least that number of children."

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 21:16

Lougle · 10/05/2023 20:22

"However, they did say (and I double checked) that each appeal goes on merit alone and is not compared to any of the other appeals being heard, which is a comfort."

@NatM70 are you sure you understood this bit correctly? If the panel decides a school can admit, say, 5 children, and there are 20 appellants, they do need to compare the relative strengths of the case of each appellant in order to make a decision about which children should be admitted. They can't just admit everyone who has a strong case.

I was also sent this prior to the hearing.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 21:17

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 20:52

On the subject of comparison, the appeals code is quite clear - comparisons between cases cannot be made when deciding if easch case outweighs the schools case, but must be made if more cases outweigh the schools case than can be admitted - as Lougle says,. So I can see how confusion could arise. So comparison may not happen, if not enough cases outweigh the schools, but can (and must) if too many do.

"3.9 In multiple appeals, the panel must not compare the individual cases when deciding whether an appellant’s case outweighs the prejudice to the school. However, where the panel finds there are more cases which outweigh prejudice than the school can admit, it must then compare the cases and uphold those with the strongest case for admission. Where a certain number of children could be admitted without causing prejudice, the panel must uphold the appeals of at least that number of children."

@PatriciaHolm Thank you.
They stated twice that they don't compare cases against each other, so this is a little confusing indeed!
So, what they told me is incorrect?

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 21:28

Well; what they have said is true, as far as it goes - the comparison, initially, is between the school's case and the child's case. So each appellant is looked at separately to start with.

However, if there are many appeals and this initial process results in more "successful" appeals than the school can accommodate, the individual cases must be compared.

So, for example, we have a school with 20 appeals - not unusual. Say the school's case on it's own is weak-ish, it's clear that they could accommodate more. And say when the panel look at the cases, there are 12 strong cases that each, individually, outweigh the schools case. The problem then is that we think the school cannot cope with another 12 in year 7. So having looked at each case on its own, we are now at a situation where we need to go back and compare, as we cannot let in another 12. As a panel, we decide the school can cope with 8 more - say one per form. So we compare the 12 to find the strongest 8. And we must do that.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 21:47

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 21:28

Well; what they have said is true, as far as it goes - the comparison, initially, is between the school's case and the child's case. So each appellant is looked at separately to start with.

However, if there are many appeals and this initial process results in more "successful" appeals than the school can accommodate, the individual cases must be compared.

So, for example, we have a school with 20 appeals - not unusual. Say the school's case on it's own is weak-ish, it's clear that they could accommodate more. And say when the panel look at the cases, there are 12 strong cases that each, individually, outweigh the schools case. The problem then is that we think the school cannot cope with another 12 in year 7. So having looked at each case on its own, we are now at a situation where we need to go back and compare, as we cannot let in another 12. As a panel, we decide the school can cope with 8 more - say one per form. So we compare the 12 to find the strongest 8. And we must do that.

@PatriciaHolm
Thank you for clarification.
I wish they'd told me that yesterday.
They volunteered the information, and I just double checked that at the end.
Feeling a little less sure now, but I wasn't exactly that sure anyway!

Can I just ask, I was told that the panel would not see the waiting list.
However, this was one of the first things they mentioned.
My child is not near the front, but I am thinking that is because they went on distance alone at allocation.
Since application, I have more evidence from professionals who have given their opinions on what is best for my child and they name this school.
I suppose what I want to know is, are the panel swayed by this waiting list and where my child is?
Like I said, at application, I did not have the professional evidence I now have.
Do the panel take in to account the fact I now have strong evidence or will they take in to account where he was placed on the waiting list at the admissions stage please?

Lougle · 10/05/2023 21:53

I can see why you're confused. I don't think what you were sent is very helpful, nor what you were told.

Stage 1 of the appeal deals with whether the school is 'full', and whether they are so 'full' that they can't take any other child.

The school can fail at stage 1 because they are under their PAN (rare), or because the admissions process didn't comply with the Code (and it cost that child their place), or that the admissions process wasn't carried out correctly (and it cost the child their place).

At stage 1, no cases are compared against each other. Each case is decided, for stage 1, on its merits.

Stage 2 is used if there are more children who are 'successful' than the school can reasonably admit. It is in stage 2 that the cases of all the successful children are compared, to decide which children should take the places that the panel decided were reasonably available in stage 1.

This means that there could be many children who 'succeed' in showing that the school can take extra pupils that don't in fact win their appeal because of other cases being more compelling.

Lougle · 10/05/2023 21:55

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 21:47

@PatriciaHolm
Thank you for clarification.
I wish they'd told me that yesterday.
They volunteered the information, and I just double checked that at the end.
Feeling a little less sure now, but I wasn't exactly that sure anyway!

Can I just ask, I was told that the panel would not see the waiting list.
However, this was one of the first things they mentioned.
My child is not near the front, but I am thinking that is because they went on distance alone at allocation.
Since application, I have more evidence from professionals who have given their opinions on what is best for my child and they name this school.
I suppose what I want to know is, are the panel swayed by this waiting list and where my child is?
Like I said, at application, I did not have the professional evidence I now have.
Do the panel take in to account the fact I now have strong evidence or will they take in to account where he was placed on the waiting list at the admissions stage please?

Show quote history

Waiting lists make no difference at appeal. You could be 50th on the list and have a stronger case than the person at no. 1 on the list.

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 21:59

As Lougle says, waiting lists are completely independent to appeals, and we don't as panelists want to know where you are on the list, and we have no influence on it. Where you are has no influence on our decision as panels.

If your appeal succeeds, you get a place, regardless of your place on list. And if you fail, your place on the list is unaffected.

Lougle · 10/05/2023 22:05

Also, to reassure you, if you have strong evidence now to support your appeal, the fact that you didn't have that evidence at the time is not a problem. It is quite possible for a panel to conclude that the admissions authority didn't make a mistake in not admitting under the exceptional medical and social grounds but equally find that the evidence provided for appeal is strong enough to warrant a place at the school.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 22:05

Lougle · 10/05/2023 21:55

Waiting lists make no difference at appeal. You could be 50th on the list and have a stronger case than the person at no. 1 on the list.

Show quote history

@PatriciaHolm
Thanks so much.
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me and give such great advice.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 22:06

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 22:05

@PatriciaHolm
Thanks so much.
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me and give such great advice.

Show quote history

@Lougle sorry, I meant you, I replied thinking it was @PatriciaHolm who had replied to me.
Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me.

Lougle · 10/05/2023 22:16

No bother, we're both saying the same thing 😊

Just remember that all panellists try their best to do what is right and nobody has an interest in denying places if the school can cope with more children. The panel will read all cases carefully and consider with great care which children, if any, can be granted places. I've sat on an appeal before where twin 1 was granted the place and twin 2 denied because their case wasn't quite as compelling as another child. It's taken very seriously.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 22:57

Lougle · 10/05/2023 21:53

I can see why you're confused. I don't think what you were sent is very helpful, nor what you were told.

Stage 1 of the appeal deals with whether the school is 'full', and whether they are so 'full' that they can't take any other child.

The school can fail at stage 1 because they are under their PAN (rare), or because the admissions process didn't comply with the Code (and it cost that child their place), or that the admissions process wasn't carried out correctly (and it cost the child their place).

At stage 1, no cases are compared against each other. Each case is decided, for stage 1, on its merits.

Stage 2 is used if there are more children who are 'successful' than the school can reasonably admit. It is in stage 2 that the cases of all the successful children are compared, to decide which children should take the places that the panel decided were reasonably available in stage 1.

This means that there could be many children who 'succeed' in showing that the school can take extra pupils that don't in fact win their appeal because of other cases being more compelling.

Thank you so much for your advice.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 22:59

PatriciaHolm · 10/05/2023 21:59

As Lougle says, waiting lists are completely independent to appeals, and we don't as panelists want to know where you are on the list, and we have no influence on it. Where you are has no influence on our decision as panels.

If your appeal succeeds, you get a place, regardless of your place on list. And if you fail, your place on the list is unaffected.

Thanks so much.

NatM70 · 10/05/2023 23:02

Lougle · 10/05/2023 22:05

Also, to reassure you, if you have strong evidence now to support your appeal, the fact that you didn't have that evidence at the time is not a problem. It is quite possible for a panel to conclude that the admissions authority didn't make a mistake in not admitting under the exceptional medical and social grounds but equally find that the evidence provided for appeal is strong enough to warrant a place at the school.

Thank you. That is very reassuring.
They did say I have enough evidence.
Just a waiting game now!

SadRach76 · 22/05/2023 19:22

@SuperSue77 @NatM70 OMG we only won, I cant believe it so happy! Thanks for all your kind words.
How long did it take for any paperwork to come through from school @NatM70 please xx

Original poster

SuperSue77 · 22/05/2023 19:28

Fantastic! Congratulations! Mine is tomorrow and I feel so under prepared. I haven’t even written out questions for the school’s case yet. I know why we want him to go there back to front but it’s just making sure I don’t miss anything on the day. I’m only now leaving work as work is so busy right now, I wish I could have taken today off to prepare. I’m so happy for you though, great news to give me hope!

OP posts: