Dropping non-core subject, include on UCAS? Do unis see actual GCSE score?

[27apr2023]

Just that, really.

My DD is thinking of possibly dropping Additional Maths as finding it a bit tricky and feels it will really impact on other subjects. She's on for all 8/9s in the other subjects but looks like a 5 or possibly 6 in AdMa.

I'm thinking it might be good if she continued the AdMa and, instead, perhaps he can still sit it but just leave it out on the application form as I keep hearing that unis only look at the best 8 results? Or is leaving a grade out frowned upon (and how would they know)?

Secondly, do universities get to see the actual raw & percentage scores from the GCSE exams or do they just see a '9', '8' etc?

Thanks in advance!

If she sits it she includes it.

Is there an option to not sit a GCSE exam? Is that classed as withdrawing or no-show? I'd love mine to drop a subject she's not great at, but not sure if we have any choice at this point

Anything sat, even if failed, is included. Universities only see final grades.

If it’s pulling down her other grades she should drop it if she’s able.

That's clear. If she sits it, she needs to include it. Sounds as if it might be better if she pulls out of the AdMa exam.

Out of interest, can UCAS detect this. What if people 'cheat' and exclude grades anyway?

So, for GCSEs, unis only see the actual grade (not the % or raw score). Is that the same for A-levels?

If she sits it, it should go on the form.
What is she looking at studying?

I suspect that if a university saw a raft of 8/9s and a 5 in AddMaths, they would not count it against her - there's a good grade in the maths GCSE, the AddMaths is a bonus, and the fact that the grade is lower could be down to not enough teaching time/self-teaching rather than any lack of ability. Not all schools are able to offer full teaching for AddMaths.

However if it's affecting work for other subjects, dropping it may make things easier.

Out of interest, can UCAS detect this. What if people 'cheat' and exclude grades anyway?

Schools check it, for a start.

UCAS can't detect it, but her sixth form will need to sign off on the form to say it's true/accurate to the best of their knowledge. They won't do this if they know she's left off a qualification. Some do check more rigorously than others, but we wouldn't allow this.

Unis can also ask for GCSE certificates at enrolment. All her subjects for each exam board will be on certificate. If they see a grade that doesn't match, this could cause issues. If they'd somehow overfilled the course, and were desperate to turn people away, I think they could effectively withdraw her offer at the point of enrolment, but this would be unusual.

A 5/6 in the subject wouldn't be a barrier to getting a uni place. If she wants to carry on, I would let her. If she doesn't, and the school will let her drop it, I would let her do that.

UCAS/ universities CANNOT see if a student has dropped a subject.

Universities will look at GCSE math rather than additional math. They are unlikely to care if there is one lower mark in an optional subject.

Don’t try and hide achieved grades

Thanks for a very useful answer. That's good to know that it's checked and verified. We wouldn't want to do anything that's not the 'right /correct thing', but was curious if others could game the system which would be slightly irking.

I think her school would drop it, but if not it sounds as if a 5/6 in AdMaths won't be a hinder either.

thanks

@27apr2023 For Ds he filled in his UCAS details at home but it is his sixth form that check it all and they are the ones to submit it. They have to include the school they attended, the dates they were there, all their qualifications including which exam board awarded it. The teachers add their personal reference (which is changing in a couple of years) but again the sixth form are the ones who submit the completed entry. It would be difficult to game the system. Ds's head of year was responsible for overseeing it all.

A grade 5/6 won't have an impact on uni applications. Only Oxford really scrutinise GCSE grades and the rest look at them in conjunction with A level predictions, personal statements and teacher references. Ds's mate got 8s and 9s bar a couple of 6s. He is at a top 10 uni studying physics.

Thank you and reassuring it's all checked and verified. Also good to hear that the odd outlier is fine too!

I hadn't actually thought about teacher references.

Are they given for each subject or is it just an overall summary of the student? And when are they changing (I have heard the personal statement will be removed/changed)?

UCAS adviser here - yes UCAS is changing but from September 2024 (entry to university in 2025). So anyone completing an application for entry to university in September 2024 will still have to do a personal statement.

References from teachers are usually made up of individual comments that have been made by subject teachers. Depending on the school or college - they can be written by a personal tutor or UCAS specialist in the school. Always as positive as possible and letting the university know whether the school or college thinks the student has applied for an appropriate course etc.

It is still the students responsibility to include all the correct information regarding qualifications etc. although schools and colleges do check before the application is submitted. They will be checked again during enrolment for the university that the student ends up going to - and if a student has lied about their qualifications their place could be rescinded - omissions are unlikely to impact the process - as offers are made on what is on the form rather than what is left off.

Thank you, very informative!

I also read that many of the entrance tests will change? Why is that and will they be replaced with similar entry tests? Or are we moving towards a system where admissions will only be made once actual results (A-levels) are in? A system that worked on actual rather than predicted results would clearly be fairer, simpler and presumably - once set up - more efficient to all.

@27apr2023 I haven't seen anything about the entrance exams changing unless they are suggesting that more students sit them. Most take place in early November of year 13 and are standard for some courses like medicine. Ds did sit one, only one university specified he had to do it, the rest just offered without ever seeing the result.

Although the whole university places after A level results are out has been floated around for a long time realistically and logistically I cannot see how this would happen. Ds's uni start date was last week of September but some are much earlier. Moving the start of the academic year would have a huge impact on teaching staff as well as students.

Roughly 70% of students get their firm choice university with 5% getting their insurance. Lots of factors play into this. For a student who hopes to get into a uni with AAA entry grades and are predicted AAA then there is no wiggle room, conversely, for another student predicted 3 A stars this is a very safe bet. Some unis will allow you to miss a grade some absolutely do not.

Ds was able to read the comments made on his personal statement by his teachers, so 5 people all had a hand in it, 4 A level subject teachers and his head of house who added her own thoughts too. The changes to the UCAS system for teacher references worries me as I believe it will become optional to add comments. I fear schools with more demands on their time will neglect this area.

I don't think the changes to teachers references are that significant to be honest. The change to the personal statement is the biggest change. As it has long been recognised that this favours some children from a particular socio-economic backgrounds. Personally, I think the change is good.

Ideally we would have a system that went off results rather than predictions. Sadly, I think it will be a while until that happens - as the whole system would likely need to change - as no way they could complete the application the month and a half between results day and when most universities welcome the first year undergraduates.

I've read on several sites that contract for entry tests for several unis will end in 2024. That doesn't mean they won't be replaced by others, but there is change afoot:

My DS is on track to get 8/9s for most of his GCSEs apart from English Literature where he’s on track for a U (or not much better). His school won’t let him drop it, even though he’s doing 11 GCSEs. He’s trying to work out whether to do any revision for it at all, on the basis it would detract from time spent on his other subjects. Can he leave it off his UCAS application when the time comes, or do you HAVE to include all exams you have sat? Or should he do many hours of work to try and scrape a 4?? He’s more secure on the English Language so that’s fine we think.

Unless she is likely to apply to Oxbridge or a uni where they score gcses. Oxbridge score in context of school results. Some others score on all taken or best 8.

You have to include it otherwise you are making a fraudulent application and unis can withdraw offers if discovered after. School should not be signing off the statement that qualifications are correct.

@YourNattyPlumGoose I think this thread is problematic as you are asking the same question literally 1 year after the initial thread was started meaning @Spirallingdownwards is responding to the original poster whose child has sat the exams a year ago. Sorry Spiral

I have repeatedly asked @MNHQ over the years to add a banner to the top of the thread to show how old the thread is when it is resurrected.

Short answer, yes he has to declare all GCSEs on UCAS.

I have to ask how on earth is your Ds getting 8/9s across the board yet a U in English lit? Clearly very capable but why crash this grade? Yes as a core subject school would not withdraw him and will have to declare it on UCAS, as above grades are checked by the sixth form and I know one lad who got into Cambridge with 4 A stars who still had to prove he got a 6 in English language.

As a parent I would look at a past paper today with your son and open up the corresponding mark scheme and walk through a paper. Usually students struggle more with English lang than lit. All lit help is on youtube, Mr Bruff, Mr Salles etc literally walking them through what to write, themes in the books etc. If he applied himself he could at least pass it.

Your son potentially would then have a spiky profile which depending on whether he is aiming for a top university and a competitive course could go against him. It is saying I am academically capable with 8/9s but I didn't apply myself to this subject which could suggest that they don't work hard at things they don't find interesting. My own DC was rejected from Durham for a very competitive course based on his GCSEs not being competitive enough against the other applicants. He got 9999998887, we think the 7 was the killer. He is predicted 3 A stars and an A on an A star AA entry requirement. And yes Durham tell you why you are rejected so it is fact not speculation.

This was DS last year. School basically made him drop Ad Maths because it “damaged his profile”.

@YourNattyPlumGoose I agree with @CarryMeToIreland yes he has to declare all GCSEs (and se previous posts from a year ago on this thread.

I cannot imagine school will let him drop Eng lit tbh.

But I also am somewhat astonished that he is achieving 8/9 in all other subjects but a U in eng lit. That is some spike!

Does he take history or RE or anything else requiring analysis of texts or themes? Just where is he falling down so badly? I would think it was worth trying to get that grade to at least a 4. He is clearly bright so I cannot believe that that is not possible.

My DS was not a fan of Eng lit so did v little work but even then, being basically pretty able, he gained a 6.

I agree look at past papers - also look at his most recent mock from school (ask them for a copy) and see where he is failing so badly. Is it lack of interest? Some of DS's peers, who were all made to take MFL, almost deliberately did badly (as if to prove they shouldn't have had to do it) in protest and gained 2/3 when the rest of their grades were 5/6/7.

Not saying your DS is doing it on purpose but this is an even more massive dissonance than DS's mates. I would deffo have a conversation with him and a look at his past work.

@CarryMeToIreland 🙈