A Level Choices Advice - Subject Clash

[LinManuelMirandaIsAGenius]

DD is Yr 11, and plans to stay on and do A Levels. She is bright and hardworking and predicted 8/9 in all subjects.
Maths has always been her “thing” so she’s always planned to do A Level. She’s been encouraged by her teacher to also do further maths and she really wants to. She really wants to challenge herself with it. She also loves physics (not surprising given her flair for maths.)So far, no problem…

She also excels at languages. She is the only student in her year doing two languages at GCSE, and she is desperate to do a level in one of them. School will allow four A levels if one is further maths alongside maths.

One of the languages is not running at A level, DD was the only student to choose it. The other one is running, but has been placed in the same block as further maths, so she can’t do both.

Teachers are trying to find a way around it, but it’s not looking likely.

So, my question is, can anyone offer any advice on what she might do if she can’t do both? There aren’t really any other subjects she wants to do, especially not in the correct blocks.

She has no idea what she wants to study after A levels. One of the reasons for choosing the subjects she has was to keep her options open in the hope that by the end of sixth form she will know whether she wants to go down the maths/physics or language route.

Any advice would be appreciated…!

Are there other 6th form options locally?

Given she is not sure what to do I would go for the language over FM. If she was set on maths/physics/engineering at a top uni then FM would be more valuable.

My friend has this with her dd at her school's sixth form - French and further maths clash, she is the only student doing both. The dd has managed the timetable herself so she decides which lesson to attend, she normally misses further math lessons but does the homework and since end of lower sixth her parents have also paid for a further maths tutor. The course the dd wants to do at uni doesn't have massively high grade requirements (it's a business / linguistics degree) - ABB - so her uni place isn't dependent on high grades in 4 subjects. She has had full support for her school for this (because they didn't want her to drop French a level). Her other 2 a levels are economics and maths

@NancyJoan that’s the thing I forgot to mention! There are 2 options, but one of them doesn’t allow students to do four ‘A’ levels, only in extreme circumstances (that’s what they said at their open evening). It’s also much further away than her current school, although manageable.

The other school is closer, and said they would definitely be running one of the languages. They would also allow her to do four subjects (if one is further maths). The issue there is with her changing schools. She is really settled where she is (which has taken a long time). Current school also has a much better track record of results and the sixth form is especially highly regarded.

All that being said, moving schools is an option we’ve discussed and isn’t definitely off the table…

I think if she is settled and happy in school, and the other options are school sixth forms (not colleges where most students don't know each other) then I'd be a bit wary about moving for sixth form. If it's not a sixth form with lots of outside students come in, it can be difficult in terms of friendships. You also don't know what to expect from the school in terms of staffing/cover- Do you know anyone with children at the school now?

To be honest, it's very likely that next year she would drop down to 3 subjects. I know you don't think that now, but it really is the norm, even with further maths. I know a few students who carry on with 4- but very often it does hurt their performance, further maths less so than another 4th, but it's often still noticeable OR there is less time for extra curriculars etc/work.

For me, if she wasn't totally committed to the physics/maths route, I'd go for maths/physics/language. That will be a strong combination for a wide range of uni courses- yes there are some which need further maths, but there are lots and lots that don't. And it will keep her options open in a way which maths/further maths/physics won't.

If she moves sixth form, does 4 subjects and gets less good grades, that will give her less options.

I would go for the maths options and do language proficiency qualifications which are much more highly regarded as demonstration of language fluency than Academic qualifications such as Alevels

I would be pushing really hard for a timetable change, in our former life we were a “languages” school, and still offer far more mfl options than most, but even in our sixth form of 600+ mfl uptake is shocking, regularly 6-8 for german, same for french etc etc. far more kids do further maths. There is still ample time for them to redo the blocks, if they want to.

But doing 4 a levels doesn't have to mean grades will suffer, sometimes it's luck (or not) on the day.
Doing 4 might mean that if you are unlucky in 1 exam and only getting A for it, you could still get 3 A stars in other 3 subjects. Instead of getting 2 A stars and 1 A.

Is interest in languages mainly in learning to speak, write etc or also learn literature etc?
If it's just to learn language then there are other options as mentioned above

Thank you all for your replies, some really good advice/opinions.

@redrobin75 your post is really useful, thank you. We had talked about her doing the language on her own (so to speak, with school support) but she didn’t really think that would work. We hadn’t considered her doing it the other way round, and I think that is something we should look at further. I think school would be supportive and if it became too much she might have a better idea of which one she’d prefer to drop.

@fUNNYfACE36 I’ve not heard of language proficiency qualifications before, that is definitely something to look into, thank you.

@JaffavsCookie we will definitely push as much as we can for a timetable change. The member of staff who does the timetable spoke to DD and said they’d tried everything but just couldn’t make it fit. I do think that there must be a way though… I agree that the take-up of languages is shocking. This is a large school (1400 pupils, 220 in her year) and there are 3 students wanting to take a language at A level. I find that really surprising (and a bit depressing…)

@Postapocalypticcowgirl There are no sixth form collages locally, just schools. She would know some students there as some she went to primary with will go there, but she hasn’t seen them for five years, so would no doubt be awkward. I agree with your other observations regarding probably ending up dropping one subject and keeping her options open and getting the best grades possible in three subjects being better than doing ok in four…

@Notagardener her interest is in both really, so the A level course really suits her. They get loads of time to speak, there seems to be a real emphasis on that, which she really enjoys, but she also really interested in studying the book and film that they need to do. Something different that’s not part of GCSE.

this might not be relevant to your dd but mine, in a similar ish position chose maths, further maths and two languages in order to keep her maths/languages option open. How sure is your dd about physics? I think, but would be worth checking, that uni physics courses would prefer further maths to physics at A level. And does it make any difference to the timetabling problems?

You could certainly ask, but the "pushing really hard" is a bit much as it may not be as easy as this. To meet OP's DD's options/timetable may fuck up the options of other students. Which students' preferences are more important? Who decides?

I'd go for the school change, or maybe investigate whether she could do a language privately (with the school making the entry). That might give the option of doing her preferred language, or she might prefer to do the one they're teaching - they might at least be able to timetable some lessons so she can join in a bit. (Often most lessons in the timetable are allocated to one or another "option block", but there are sometimes a few spare slots, so moving any lessons they can to those reduces the clash. FMaths is sometimes done in fewer lessons, which can also reduce the clashes. I think at DD's school, FMaths is mostly in the spare slots, as the further mathematicians are all doing different combinations - I think they've got any clashes down to one lesson a week and the kids make sensible decisions about which to attend.)

If she might want to do maths/engineering/physics, best not to drop further maths.

A lot of people say they should drop to 3 A-levels, but this is less the case if one is FMaths, and there's no need if they're coping well with four.

If maths is her thing, then she really needs to do Further Maths, regardless of what she wants for her other options. Most students that do Further Maths do 4 A-Levels in total, usually Physics and "something else" and they tend to get very high grades in both maths subjects, as it self selects the strongest mathematicians. Doing 3 would be a lesser option, because you're really only doing 2 different subjects, and the workload for further maths is not as high as a full 4th A-Level if you are an able mathematician. If you are not an able mathematician, then it's not the route for you.

@clary thought you might want to wade in on this for A level languages knowledge.

Re further maths, how does school teach it? For Ds they although they have a timetabled slot labelled further maths and one maths they actually do A level maths in both and finish all the content in year 12. Then they do further maths at the end of year 12 and into year 13 which sees them cement their maths knowledge too. They sit both exams in year 13. It means 50% of their timetable is maths so you have to absolutely love it. It is a different class to the A level maths students as they do it over 2 years.

Physics becomes less mathsy at A level. Ds started off loving it but realised it was predominantly the maths element of GCSE physics. Still worked hard at it. The number of students doing 4 A levels is the minority, usually further maths if at state schools and I believe more usual at fee paying schools. The vast majority do 3.

I would say stick with the maths and further maths and look into something else language wise. I know it changes a lot at A level, hence sending up the bat signal for clary