Central London Secondary Schools - Grammar?

[Schoolhelp23]

Hi,

Had planned to move out of central London but due to a change of circumstances, will be staying, so now considering schools (DD only in Y4). I think the 1st choice would be Grey Coat, but a colleague has told me that I should consider grammar schools, even if she has to travel a little to attend. Does anyone have any experience of their child attending a grammar school that wasn't particularly close to them geographically (if from Central London, all the better)?! I know most have catchment areas, but I'm aware some do not. Also, if anyone can recommend any great central London comprehensives!

Tiffin is no good if you live near the South Bank. It has an Inner Area which is smallish and a Designated Area which is a bit wider. Since the Designated Area was introduced not a single place has been offered to any girl who doesn't live within it.

Do the teachers at your daughter's primary school not have any recommendations/insight into the best secondary school destinations for local children?

I can't be that far away. St Olafs was another one. Historically they take a number of Lambeth and Southwark kids.

Sixth form is far easier. Lots of good Sixth Forms in the area. Harris Westminster, Kings Maths School, Pimlico Academy, Greycoats (Co Ed by then)

That said a significant proportion of people we knew rented for year 6 in another catchment. (And then went on to brag about how they were committed to the state system, even though a couple at least could have paid fees without noticing.)

St Olave’s, like Newstead, is in Orpington and they have no distance criteria. (DS used to go there, and we’re in SE26, and he was one of the furthest out. DD1 moved there for 6th form, and there are a few scattered in greenwich/ dulwich/ Croydon etc but most seem to be beckenham, bickley, Orpington. You could - in theory- live in Camden and commute if you so wished.

Newstead Wood does have a distance criteria, as others have mentioned - think it is still 9 miles. DD1 went there, and DD2 about to start. It’s a straightforward commute, walk 10 min to station, 25 min on train full on friends, 15 min walk to school. But it does impact on friendships, there is a lot to be said for going to to your closest/ a closer school.

Acquaintances have had DDs at Greycoats, and been very happy. I am sure it compares very well with grammars, if your child meets the criteria/ has a place there, I would snap it up.

Sorry I got confused. I meant St Saviour and St Olaves, which historically used to be the sister school to St Olaves, except the latter moved out to Orpington (but which still apparently retains some duty to educate boys from Lambeth/Southwark.)

Thankfully we are well past 11+ days so I am not up to date with current views on schools or their selection criteria. Transport out of the centre is good so distance matters less. Ease and reliability are more important. (We went private and DD commuted to Ravenscourt Park tube quite happily, though she was the only one from her post code in the school.) We certainly knew kids who went to St Olaves, St Saviour (look at their entry criteria, from memory there were bonus points given to music), Sutton Grammars, Graveney, Harris Bermondsey, St Marylebone. One or two also made it to the Oratory or to the girls equivalent in Hammersmith but from families with strong church links.

Entry criteria can be tricky. Greycoats is very close to us but absolutely no chance. Friends nearby ended up renting a flat almost next door to the school, the catchment was so small. Back then the stream for those who got in via the language aptitude test was almost a school within a school, which created its own problems. They have now changed the religious points system. At one stage it felt as if both child and parents needed to be expert at church flower arranging whilst simultaneously attending all night prayer sessions. So lots commuting long distances and local children not getting a look in. Those close enough to be offered places then started choosing Pimlico Academy instead.

There were concerns about the religious associations of the people behind the Oasis Academy but don't know how that panned out. (We vaguely knew people whose kids were allocated there when it first opened.)

Secondary school transfer was a nightmare. Options were gain religion, tutor (and commute), rent in catchment, move, or pay. We did the last (DD sat for Tiffin but was 800th on their wait list. DS was 100th and is genuinely academic, indeed is currently taking a PhD in the US alongside a former Tiffin girl) but most rented or moved. At the time people were actively avoiding Lillian Baylis, which used to have 93% fsm, the highest in the country, though it has improved since.

In terms of actual state offers DS did not get anything till late May and then it was an unpopular school in North Lambeth. DD was offered a troubled school in Brixton which was a difficult commute and which they would not let us look round until the end of the summer term new starters day, and then only if she had accepted the offer. (And despite her having a clear dyslexia diagnosis.)

I hate the smug anti private threads, from posters with easy state options. It was tough effectively working 2 jobs so we could afford it. (Hence my long standing user name.) However we love living in Central London and the kids had endless opportunities.

“That said a significant proportion of people we knew rented for year 6 in another catchment. “

For many schools, this wouldn’t work, as they look into whether parents own a home anywhere else.

This is something that is often said on MN but I have not seen any evidence it happens, at least not in Central London. Lots of kids will have complex backgrounds and kids commute all over the place. Evidence of living in catchment when applying appears to be sufficient. Schools probably don’t have the resources to do more. (

3.5 years as of now or 3.5 years at the point you will apply? I think they reserve a percentage of places for non church attendees but the majority will have at least 5 years.

I believe most who apply for grey coat also apply for St Marylebone.

I live near Grey Coat and all of the local girls who don’t go private seem to opt for it. It has fantastic results.

What about when she's 16 and wanting to see friends on Saturday evenings? Do you drive / have a car? How do you feel about 20 mile round trip pick-ups (in London that's likely to take at least an hour, even at 2am). If not, how will she get home safely? Will you pay for cabs?
This is the reality of having a child in a school far from home. There are some great things about attending a grammar school but local friends is often not one.

As suggested upthread, central London has a wealth of very good state sixth forms. It’s 11-16 that is the problem.

In any case central London kids manage. Tube, night buses, reputable taxi firms, walking along ralitivly safe main roads. I can only remember being a taxi a couple of times, and once was NYE where I filled the car and dropped various kids off on the way back.

True in theory, but in practice CCHS has a significant number of girls commuting to Chelmsford from the Ilford and Redbridge areas. There’s sufficient demand that a private coach company operates from there.

It’s a really punishing commute that must surely impact upon being able to attend after school clubs, and parents being able to attend evening events? I think some parents lose sight of the practicalities of attending far-flung grammars, and only care about the GCSE results 🤷‍♀️

The lack of engagement was one of the main reasons for the introduction of the priority area, iirc. That and CCHS / KEGS pupils dozing off in lessons...

I am aware of the lengths that KEGS go to to winkle out suspected address fraud and can't imagine that CCHS is much different. But of course, even if the place has been obtained through a never intended to be long term, but legitimate, move, there is nothing to stop people moving back / away if they wait until after the end of any minimum period stipulated.

And of course, it is more than the academic that makes any school, grammar schools included.

I don't know your area but would suggest that you don't rule out local comprehensive schools and what they can offer. At the beginning of next term schools will offer open evenings/days and you can take kids to look round - and when we did it there were lots of year 5 parents at schools.

Commuting home from school can easily take a lot longer than the theoretical 45 min to an hour journey mentioned. At GCSE, but more at A level, that's time and energy that could be used for a mix of homework and other activities.

Although my kids' school is comprehensive and doesn't do streaming per se, by the GCSE years, a lot of their classes will end up being divvied up by

• GCSEs rather than courses leading to other qualifications
• subject choice, especially on optional choice
• levels, eg some subjects have foundation and higher level classes, and in Science generally students who are expected to do well/are identified as potential A level students in the subject(s) will be in Triple Science

Also, there are lots of apps and systems used by the school designed to push students to keep moving in subjects, so for example, my sons' Maths studies are much more tailored to them than simply being top set ever was for me. From parents evenings including the most recent one last month for DS1 - y11 so exams next month.

My sons' local school isn't especially well regarded, though it has a Good OFSTED, but I think the issue is that we get negatively compared with the much more middle class and less ethnically diverse west of the borough. Certainly what I see is teachers who really work hard and care about students having every chance offered to them, rather than appealing to snobbery and gimmicks.

Also, since you have DDs, some girls' state schools which aren't explicitly grammar or selective still have students do really well at GCSE and A level, and move on to impressive university courses. One of my local councillors went to such a school and then Oxford, though her family has issues and never had secure permanent housing while she was living at home.

A few yr back, my colleague was overjoyed when their DD got into grey coat. I would argue Grey Coat is more academic than the other grammar options. Half of the A-Levels are A* /A. The journey time is important. You want your DD to have friends locally.

Kingsdale, in Sydenham/Dulwich, operates a lottery system and I think is quite sought after. Do a search though as there has been a fair bit of chat about it on MN. Easy commute from Victoria or Brixton.

If your daughter has musical ability Prendergast would be a good option Waterloo east to Ladywell is a feasible journey. Agree with unthread Grey Coats or Marylebone would be my first choices for your location.

Sorry for jumping on the thread but I have the same dilemma for DS! Currently in west London, he is year 1 and in a pre prep but considering grammars after prep. He’s very bright.

FYI:
Two daughters at Grey Coat Hospital; friends with daughters there too.
Academic rigor is the only priority at the school.
It is a high pressure, low (pastoral/ learning) support environment.