Another secondary appeal

[HighHeelsHurt]

Hi
There has been great advice on here that has helped me form an appeal.

I was wondering if the experts on here could help me with the questions to put to the school during the panel. I have been rejected on distance. I am asking the panel for the school to go over PAN. They are not currently over PAN in any years.

Basis of appeal
DD has SEND and EP reports suggests assistive technology should be used to support her. Appealed school offers iPads to assist learning. Offered school does not.
EP report suggests DD is encouraged to peruse things she feels she is good add to boost self esteem. Appealed schools had an Arts specialism. DD performs (to a pretty high standard- comps etc) in extra curricular clubs. Appealed school offers different (more specific) GCSEs and BTEC in the arts that she would like to study.
DD rides horses. Appealed school offers horse riding assessment at GCSE as part of PE.
DD has studied a language outside school since reception. The appealed school offers enrichment clubs around this language, the offered school does not (although offers the language at GCSE).

I have supporting letters from her Headteacher suggesting she would benefit from being at the school, 2 EP reports (one from year 3 one from year 6) confirming SEND and recommendations that the appealed school can accommodate, a letter of support from her Language teacher and a letter of support from the Principle in the arts.

I assume the school are going to say they can’t accommodate her as it can’t got over PAN. Is there something I can ask about safeguarding concerns so I can debunk them? Ie how many accidents have been experienced in hallways due to overcrowding? Am I clutching at straws? I don’t know how I can prove they can accommodate her if they say they can’t? I have asked the school if any expansion in the last 5 years. They confirmed they have updated facilities, but not classrooms.

Or

Do I just let them present their case- I present mine and expect the panel to weigh these things up?

I’m curious if the experts have a view on the strength of my case?

Thanks so much

WRT their argument about science, as a secondary science teacher, no school sticks to the 24 students for practical work recommended minimum. If they are going over that to 30, then there's no argument that means they can't go to 31 UNLESS they can make specific points about room sizes and designs of labs (which aren't as flexible as other classrooms).

I would challenge this point, as it doesn't really make sense.

More schools do stick to the recommended 20 in DT, but you could ask if they have ever exceeded it before.

As a general point, it does sound like your DC has a lot of challenges, and it may well be a good idea to pursue an ECHP regardless.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl no the school doesn’t offer horse riding as PE- they will come to her stables as part of the assessment. I did visit a few schools that said they did this so it may be standard in state schools, but it also was something we wanted to make sure her chosen school offered. I didn’t state in my appeal letter that the given school didn’t (they did not get back to me to confirm one way or the other) but did mention it in my letter as it was part of the reason we wanted her to attend the school.

There are 4 things that the appealed school offers that the given school doesn’t that I have evidenced would be a benefit to her. The horse riding is in addition.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl thanks for the insight in the science. I don’t want to back myself into a corner by pressing them on it, as it may have not been an issue before as they had an additional class (with the PAN 270) so equipment might have been evenly distributed in a way that it couldn’t be with an additional student, but will keep it in mind for my stage 2 if it’s addressed by someone in the stage 1. Thanks for taking the time to reply x

I’m just updating as I had my stage 1 hearing yesterday and I found the threads useful when there were updates and then the final outcome.

As said in other threads- the panel were great and it wasn’t as formal as I had thought. The school I am appealing for is part of an academy and the representatives were the executive of all the schools and the school deputy. I received a 12 page document stating their case of prejudice and it read very well and wasn’t sure how to manage this hearing (with questions etc). What I didn’t do was really look at what they had put in the tables as just assumed them to be correct as it was so official looking. The school has a PAN of 240. The documents tables all added up to 235. As the representative didn’t write the doc (it was done by the admissions team) it fell apart quite quickly. The panel did not seem impressed. Their case also relied heavily on movement and facilities and the impact on the children. When pushed they couldn’t say what arrangements were in place for how many children etc. By that I mean the prejudice would be to the children with health plans (wheel chair users, impaired sight), but they could only recall 2 children in the school with such considerations. They argued about the additional children in the dining hall and the prejudice to current students not having time to eat, but couldn’t evidence how many children used the dining hall and how many brought in lunch from school. They argued about school transport and more parents driving in, but had to admit that around 95% used public transport.
They argued the SEND children currently at the school would be disadvantaged, but I had looked on the gov website and pointed out the ratio of children in their school with SEND report is 4.5% under the national average.

The school came across terribly. It’s put my nerves at rest (and seriously made me question if it’s even worth appealing they a shambles) as I can’t do as badly as they did! I have my Stage 2 today so will update after.

I’ve just had my stage 2. I felt very comfortable. I prepared a few key points from my appeal letter and read them out- they asked me a few questions:

How would DD get to school if successful?
How long would that take?
How would she get to her offered school?
how long would that take?
Do I work?
Does my husband work?
Do I have other children and what ages?
They asked for the schools on my applications and how they were placed.

The school rep then summed up that she was rejected on distance.

I was asked if I wanted to say anything. I said that I felt I had covered all my reasons for it being prejudice to DD for not attending in my appeal letter, but that we really felt this appealed school would be the best placed to give her the support it’s been recommended she needs by the educational professionals that currently support her.

I now need to wait for 10 working days (at most) to revive the letter and decision.

Just to share experience, we also had a stage 2 appeal yesterday and they also asked about our other child and how we would get them to school. In our case (we are rural with little bus provision and nearest school 3.5 miles away) transport was a big part of our own case anyway. They didn’t really know the local landscape and asked more than I expected about where other kids were going (everywhere).
At stage one the panel questioned the school on their overall capacity - the school gave a number they were assessed at in a DofE space assessment and that showed they have plenty of spare capacity across the site so other arguments they had about overcrowding in communal areas were not really accepted by the panel (or parents). I wonder if all schools have this DofE assessment? Worth asking. It seems to be a separate thing to the PAN.

Academies have a capacity in their funding agreement. For convertor academies, this is based on their last net capacity assessment prior to conversion (the DofE assessment to which you refer).

LA schools have a net capacity assessment.

PAN is related to the net capacity. For a secondary school that doesn't have a sixth form, PAN should be roughly net capacity divided by 5. If the school does have a sixth form, deduct the expected size of Y12 and Y13 from the net capacity and divide what is left by 5 and that should be roughly PAN.

@Amightywoman I have an appeal hearing coming up in the next two weeks . Would you be kind enough to let me know how your appeal went , and also what kind of questions they will ask me, x

We still haven’t heard. They asked us very little - I read a statement covering our points (mainly transport and a few unique extra curriculars) and they asked a few clarifying questions about that, about how we would get our younger son to school, about where other children had been allocated. We don’t have a very strong case but we thought worth a try. At the stage 1 the panel asked the school lots of questions about why they didn’t think they could take in more children - we asked one or two questions but most parents didn’t speak at that stage and the panel did a v good job of challenging the school. So whatever the outcome I feel it was a fair process.

From long experience I would say that no-one can predict what questions you will be asked. They should ask questions to clarify anything in your case that they aren't sure about and to test the strength of your case. The admission authority's representative will be trying to find weaknesses in your case.

Panels don’t work to a script. They will ask whatever questions appear relevant and reasonable, based on what the school and the parent have said (or sometimes not said) in their submissions.

@prh47bridge does the admission authority representative ask the appellant questions at stage 2? Just wondering based on the last sentence in your comment.

Yes, they do.

The admission authority's representative will be trying to find weaknesses in your case.

As a presenting officer, I would only ask questions very gently, and often not at all. It wouldn't feel like a grilling. In my experience, weaknesses in cases are usually very obvious, so there is no need to probe for them, or even highlight them. It isn't a court of law, so my role is to present the school's case, not undermine the appellant's.

Also, remember that although school presenting officers aren't allowed to actively support your case, that doesn't mean they're not sympathetic to your circumstances.

... But just to caveat that, the sympathy of the presenting officer and the panel members may also privately extend to:

• the workload of the teachers at the school you are appealing for.
• the quality of education of the other children in the class you are arguing should be increased in size.
• the school you may be trying to avoid (which may be unfairly labelled by local opinion, and in difficult financial health due to undersubscription).
• the children on the waiting list who might otherwise get the place you want.

... even if none of this is said, it may be part of the overall picture and influence the panel's decision.

I was in a hearing where the presenting officer's definitely grilled the appellant as they attempted to prove that the appellant had known their landlord would evict them months before it actually happened. This was a case where the appellant had been forced to move after being offered a place and the LA had withdrawn the offer. It was obvious that the LA was in the wrong, but the presenting officer spent the best part of an hour attacking the appellant, even trying to claim that a trivial mistake on the appeal form was evidence that the appellant was lying. However, that was a rarity. Most presenting officers are very gentle.

That sounds uncomfortable. But I expect it backfired on the presenting officer.

The dynamic may be diiferent to my expetience if the LA is representing the school, because they have an obvious remit to try and ensure undersubscribed schools aren't disadvantaged by popular schools going over PAN.

My school is its own admissions authority, so while I feel a lot of sympathy for the undersubscribed school down the road (which most appellants are trying to avoid), I am not actively fighting its corner.

Thank you @prh47bridge &@sylentwidnes .

Well after nearly a month wait since our appeal I’m disappointed to say our appeal wasn’t successful.

Best of luck to all of you in the future that have to navigate this rocky, stressful and upsetting road. My allocated school isn’t a disaster so booked in for a uniform fitting and now I’m going to give the same focus to making this a smooth transition from primary to secondary without my DD feeling she is getting 2nd best.

Appeals aren’t for the faint hearted but if I draw I positive it’s good to be out of purgatory and time to make the best out of the situation x

@HighHeelsHurt sorry to hear that. Hope everything goes well for your DD at the allocated School. Thank you for sharing your experience of the process.My stage 2 is next month and the stress is not great. I won't know the outcome until the last week of term.