SE London Independents - difficulty to get into?

Selonmum · 2023-04-02T01:23:54+00:00

Hi All I have a DD in year 5 (state school) and we are hoping to send her independent for secondary. We are looking at Alleyn’s, St Dunstan’s and Colfe’s. We haven’t done any tutoring but, she has been using atom. We have been quite relaxed about the whole 11+ exam process but, I’ve heard lots of stories from this year that have started to stress me out! Many children did not gain places at Colfe’s and St Dunstan’s - I had always considered these as not too tough to get into! Does anyone have any first hand experience of the above schools and the difficulty of gaining a place, has it got harder? If you applied, I’d really appreciate your input - did you get offers and if you used atom the type of score your DD/DS were getting? Any general opinions on the schools also welcomed. Thanks!

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 08:30

Also interested in this. DD top half in maths, top quartile in English/VR. And yet she was refused places in schools where, historically, "selective" was a polite fiction. Her teachers are as baffled as we are.

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 08:32

(NB she gets anxious in exams and underperforms on the day. But surely that is common at 11+?)

AnotherNewt · 02/04/2023 08:35

Alleyns is always a bit of a toss up - every year there are clever DC who don't get offers, and surprising others who do. Yes, they all have to pass the exam to get to the interview stage.

I can't really help with how to compare Atom scores. But wanted to remind you that interview matters as well as exam

Lingar · 02/04/2023 09:01

I think I can help you answer as my DD tried the majority of your mentioned schools 11 Plus, she has ranked the difficulty as below from hardest:
Alleyn (tough math) - Eltham- Bexley Grammar- Kent Grammar- Newstead (many kids passed Bexley but can not get in Newstead, they only test NVR &VR)- Jags(my DD said super easy) /Colfe's/Bromley High-Blackheath High
However, my DD is a master of NVR and VR, good math, and ordinary English. She usually got a full mark of NVR.
Private schools also look at other skills, especially Eltham. People use Colfe’s as a backup for not getting in grammar. If you can pass Grammar schools should be fine to pass good independent schools.

Lingar · 02/04/2023 09:03

We did not take St Dunstan’s as We do not like their old building (they use it as main secondary education). The new building is only for primary. And they are facing the busy road of Catford... As I heard, St Dunstan’s and Colfe’s are similar levels.

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 09:46

What scores is your dd getting in the mock tests for Atom? If you email Atom directly you can get feedback of what scores to aim for depending on the school you are targeting. In general Atom says aim for above 120. But some of the more competitive schools 125-130 for Atom. I am not sure about the schools you mention, so I would ask Atom directly. But my dd got into all the schools she applied to and her scores ranged from 130s-142 for Math, 120s-130 English. Her weakest was verbal and non verbal and she would get 115-125 scores. She is going to G&L in September. She is also in State school and only started to prep end of May in year 5. So all is not lost if you are not hitting the target scores. Are the exams all online for the schools you target? If there is written, I would get a tutor to help guide you for written. Or buy some mocks online that give you the written answers so you can see what the responses the schools are looking for.

Daydreamscometrue · 02/04/2023 10:01

Atom is useful for the online element of assessments. We signed up because he was sitting exams that were computer based and wanted the practice. I don't think the maths is representative of the level of difficulty for some of the very selective schools. Not sure they actually have an Alleyns example on there but there is a Dulwich paper which was easier than the actual exam. I think a combination of Atom and written papers work well and a tutor if affordable.

HawaiiWake · 02/04/2023 10:45

We did 11+ for London secondary and we found schools do give sample papers. The one we found really helpful was Manchester Grammar school because unlike London schools they gave answers to their sample papers and it is free.

busyparent35 · 02/04/2023 12:13

We did the exams this year. What you say on it being a bit of a tough year is right I think, but I wouldn't stress out, we got what we wanted. And sounds like our DC similar to yours - in local state primary, did atoms and bit of light tutoring in autumn (for exam technique rather than anything else).

Anecdotally, so take this as you wish, its seems this year there was quite a big gap between Alleyn's and JAGS/DC - know quite a few people who got into latter but not former. And Dunstan's has got tougher - known a couple who didn't get into there but did into DC. Don't know about Colfe's.

Original poster

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:42

Lingar · 02/04/2023 09:01

I think I can help you answer as my DD tried the majority of your mentioned schools 11 Plus, she has ranked the difficulty as below from hardest:
Alleyn (tough math) - Eltham- Bexley Grammar- Kent Grammar- Newstead (many kids passed Bexley but can not get in Newstead, they only test NVR &VR)- Jags(my DD said super easy) /Colfe's/Bromley High-Blackheath High
However, my DD is a master of NVR and VR, good math, and ordinary English. She usually got a full mark of NVR.
Private schools also look at other skills, especially Eltham. People use Colfe’s as a backup for not getting in grammar. If you can pass Grammar schools should be fine to pass good independent schools.

Thank you, this is really helpful. Our DD seem similar academically. Maths and reasoning she finds easy and scores well. English she is probably slightly above average but despises writing - so, I think we’ll need to work on her creative writing.

I think we are keen to go for co-ed but this again narrows our options if we don’t want her to commute too far.

Hope your DD got the offers she wanted.

OP posts:

Original poster

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:43

Lingar · 02/04/2023 09:03

We did not take St Dunstan’s as We do not like their old building (they use it as main secondary education). The new building is only for primary. And they are facing the busy road of Catford... As I heard, St Dunstan’s and Colfe’s are similar levels.

Oh I didn’t realise this was the case re old building, thanks

OP posts:

Original poster

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:48

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 09:46

What scores is your dd getting in the mock tests for Atom? If you email Atom directly you can get feedback of what scores to aim for depending on the school you are targeting. In general Atom says aim for above 120. But some of the more competitive schools 125-130 for Atom. I am not sure about the schools you mention, so I would ask Atom directly. But my dd got into all the schools she applied to and her scores ranged from 130s-142 for Math, 120s-130 English. Her weakest was verbal and non verbal and she would get 115-125 scores. She is going to G&L in September. She is also in State school and only started to prep end of May in year 5. So all is not lost if you are not hitting the target scores. Are the exams all online for the schools you target? If there is written, I would get a tutor to help guide you for written. Or buy some mocks online that give you the written answers so you can see what the responses the schools are looking for.

Thank you for this. I did email and they gave me the average score needed but, wasn’t too sure how reliable this is as I know some DC this year who had great Atom scores but no offers…

DD is scoring 130-135 maths, 118-125 reasoning and 112-119 English.

Our exams are mixture of online and written. We have the 10 minute a day CGP books which she does and we will practice some papers over Easter. I’ll see how she does on written and reevaluate if a tutor is needed.

Well done to your DD on her offer at G&L!

OP posts:

Original poster

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:49

Thank you, I think we may consider a tutor as well to help with written element.

OP posts:

Original poster

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:52

busyparent35 · 02/04/2023 12:13

We did the exams this year. What you say on it being a bit of a tough year is right I think, but I wouldn't stress out, we got what we wanted. And sounds like our DC similar to yours - in local state primary, did atoms and bit of light tutoring in autumn (for exam technique rather than anything else).

Anecdotally, so take this as you wish, its seems this year there was quite a big gap between Alleyn's and JAGS/DC - know quite a few people who got into latter but not former. And Dunstan's has got tougher - known a couple who didn't get into there but did into DC. Don't know about Colfe's.

Thank you. Yes this is exactly what has happened at our primary. DC offered Dulwich but not St D or Colfe’s.

Our preference is Colfe’s I think and I just worry we may not have prepared enough - in thinking that it would be no trouble to get into…

Glad you got the offers you were after!

OP posts:

Lingar · 02/04/2023 12:59

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:42

Thank you, this is really helpful. Our DD seem similar academically. Maths and reasoning she finds easy and scores well. English she is probably slightly above average but despises writing - so, I think we’ll need to work on her creative writing.

I think we are keen to go for co-ed but this again narrows our options if we don’t want her to commute too far.

Hope your DD got the offers she wanted.

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Yeah, if you have good NVR, normally, math is good. Top schools are more like math kids. You can find local creative writing courses. We only prepared a few months. We got Jags, Newstead, BH and Colfe’s. But we go for Newstead. Eltham was tough to get in even though we passed the test but they are looking for super academic and super other skills ( not just good, outstanding). Co-ed is harder than single-sex schools to get in. If you are in the state primary, I would say top 3 in the class or pass Bexley top 180 will definitely get in these private with a good academic scholarship. I just use grammar as a comparison.

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 12:59

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:48

Thank you for this. I did email and they gave me the average score needed but, wasn’t too sure how reliable this is as I know some DC this year who had great Atom scores but no offers…

DD is scoring 130-135 maths, 118-125 reasoning and 112-119 English.

Our exams are mixture of online and written. We have the 10 minute a day CGP books which she does and we will practice some papers over Easter. I’ll see how she does on written and reevaluate if a tutor is needed.

Well done to your DD on her offer at G&L!

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Just curious, what scores were the dc getting on Atom that did not get offers and what schools? For us, it was reliable. My dd got into all 4 schools she applied to. My advice would be to work on the English, as it needs to be a little higher, or that might be the reason an offer is not made. Your dd has plenty of time though, so it should be fine. I do know of a dc for example who had good math scores of 130s, but then English was 105-110 (English not first language) and unfortunately, did not make it through. I was worried about my dd verbal and non verbal. But in the end she was okay. Phew!

My ds is in year 4, but his exams are all written. So I am a little nervous. His handwriting is so messy!

busyparent35 · 02/04/2023 13:00

The new building is actually mainly for STEM subjects for the senior school. Though junior (and sixth form) is also in there.

Lingar · 02/04/2023 13:02

Selonmum · 02/04/2023 12:52

Thank you. Yes this is exactly what has happened at our primary. DC offered Dulwich but not St D or Colfe’s.

Our preference is Colfe’s I think and I just worry we may not have prepared enough - in thinking that it would be no trouble to get into…

Glad you got the offers you were after!

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Colfe’s is easy, and they only test English and Matwithh. The paper was not hard... We turned down the offer. Maybe we applied for Music and art scholarships. Although they did not invite us for an audition, perhaps help for the application. It looks like boys more prefer Colfe than girls and harder to get in than girls, I guess.

busyparent35 · 02/04/2023 13:04

busyparent35 · 02/04/2023 13:00

The new building is actually mainly for STEM subjects for the senior school. Though junior (and sixth form) is also in there.

Sorry, that wasn't clear what I was referring to - the new building at Dunstans

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 19:25

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 08:32

(NB she gets anxious in exams and underperforms on the day. But surely that is common at 11+?)

It really depends on the dc. I think there are many that get anxious. But then there are some like my dd who enjoyed doing the exams and interviews.

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 20:14

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 19:25

It really depends on the dc. I think there are many that get anxious. But then there are some like my dd who enjoyed doing the exams and interviews.

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The effect, though, is that schools end up sorting children for how placid they are.

Any reasonably switched-on DC will have figured out that these are high-stakes, sliding-doors-moment assessments. A 10/11 year old doesn't have the emotional toolkit to deal with that.

Schools all have some variation of "we'll do everything we can to make your child feel at ease" but in our experience that's not true at all. They shove you straight into a big exam hall, ask questions that are deliberately too hard (so they can cherrypick the prodigies), and then then get annoyed if you find it all a bit much.

Then, if you're lucky, you get marched into an interview with a teacher you've never met, who has five minutes to judge your entire personality.

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 20:41

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 20:14

The effect, though, is that schools end up sorting children for how placid they are.

Any reasonably switched-on DC will have figured out that these are high-stakes, sliding-doors-moment assessments. A 10/11 year old doesn't have the emotional toolkit to deal with that.

Schools all have some variation of "we'll do everything we can to make your child feel at ease" but in our experience that's not true at all. They shove you straight into a big exam hall, ask questions that are deliberately too hard (so they can cherrypick the prodigies), and then then get annoyed if you find it all a bit much.

Then, if you're lucky, you get marched into an interview with a teacher you've never met, who has five minutes to judge your entire personality.

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I guess it depends really how your dc perceives the situation. My dd took all exams at different schools. She felt welcomed at all. She enjoyed it. Same with the interviews. She really enjoyed the process and the interactions she had with the teachers. She understood the situation and how competitive it was. But she liked that aspect. She is from a state school though, where she feels no pressure. It might have been different if she was in a prep school.

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 20:44

@TownCrier I forgot to mention, that of course there are extremes in the other direction. I have read/heard of cases where children vomit from being so nervous for the exams/interviews....which is terrible. Children should not be made to feel this much anxiety. Perhaps some schools are better at making dc feel at ease. I felt that was the case at the schools my dd applied to. I am hoping it will be the same for my ds. He is a little more sensitive.

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 20:46

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 20:41

I guess it depends really how your dc perceives the situation. My dd took all exams at different schools. She felt welcomed at all. She enjoyed it. Same with the interviews. She really enjoyed the process and the interactions she had with the teachers. She understood the situation and how competitive it was. But she liked that aspect. She is from a state school though, where she feels no pressure. It might have been different if she was in a prep school.

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I think it depends on the temperament of the child more than anything. It's frustrating as I was very similar to DD at her age, and of course I matured, and learned to concentrate, and got straight As.

To make it even worse, one of the schools mentioned on this thread followed the assessment with exciting "experience lessons" which had the effect of lifting all DD's anxiety and making her fall in love with the school she had just flunked the exam for.

SamPoodle123 · 02/04/2023 20:54

TownCrier · 02/04/2023 20:46

I think it depends on the temperament of the child more than anything. It's frustrating as I was very similar to DD at her age, and of course I matured, and learned to concentrate, and got straight As.

To make it even worse, one of the schools mentioned on this thread followed the assessment with exciting "experience lessons" which had the effect of lifting all DD's anxiety and making her fall in love with the school she had just flunked the exam for.

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Yes, it does make a difference the temperament of the child. Some are better able to cope then others. Some just cope with exams better. Also, there is the issue if your dc just has a bad day etc. This is what makes the 11+ so nerve wracking (for me anyway!). I was so worried if my dd would catch a bug before the exam or interview. When she had a headache the night before the first exam I thought oh no no no! But thankfully by morning it was gone and all well.

I know some people think it's great that schools interview all the dc, but I don't agree with this...esp if in the end they still have to pass a certain mark to get in. It can make the dc more hopefully and like you say, fall in love with the school more.