How important is a modern foreign language GCSE for Higher Ed?

[cool4cats2020]

DD is in yr 9 and about to make her choices for GCSE options. We were told at parent's evening a couple of weeks ago that a foreign language gcse was no longer compulsory. But the options form was sent out last week, and one of the options is to choose between French or German. She's already been doing French for 3+ years, so would seem foolish to switch now.

I'd assumed all the kids were given the same list of options, but found out today that they aren't - the school decides what to offer each child (sounds like it's based on their ability as much as anything else). And not all kids have been forced to pick a foreign language.

We had a open evening tonight to find out more about the options/subjects. Explained to the Head of Year that DD really isn't keen on French, and there are multiple other subjects in the other choice groups that she'd prefer to study. HOY frowned a bit but said that it was perfectly possible to do another subject in place of a foreign language (as some other kids are being offered anyway) if she really wanted to. He explained that a foreign language is desirable for the academicly strong as it's needed for the EBacc, and some top universities require a foreign language GCSE for admission. But then he said that's only really oxbridge and most others aren't so critical about it.

So just how important is the foreign language for university admission requirements? I had a quick look online and didn't see any that mentioned it, just the usual gcse maths and english plus A levels. I'd never even heard of this EBacc thing until today. When I went to uni 25 years ago I flunked gcse french and it was never even mentioned, but I still got into a decent uni to study a science masters. But maybe things have changed since then?

Background: DD is thriving at school, very studious and getting good reports in all subjects, in top sets and predicted strong grades. French is probably her weakest subject, and she doesn't sound to be enjoying it at all. She's not really decided on a career path, but is keen to study triple science gcse and citizenship (seems to be a blend of politics, law and related stuff, so could be quite interesting and genuinely useful) for her other options. So she's not shying away from academic subjects or looking for easy options.

If we shuffle the options and lose French it looks like she could take Creative iMedia instead (not an actual GCSE qualification, but supposedly equivalent). She's keen to do this and I'd be happy for her to as well, would be good to get a bit of a mix with all the other academic subjects that she's chosen, and maybe even put an interesting twist on her CV. She might even decide on a different career path in this area.

So my only concern is would a lack of foreign language hold her back in the higher ed admissions process? (I doubt she'll be looking at oxbridge, but you never know)

(For university applications I mean)

It matters for choice. Food tech is not History. History is good prep for loads of degrees. Good tech isn’t and narrows down choices at A level and beyond. Good schools expect at least one humanity at gcse. They do this for a reason. The best academic Dc (excluding stem) will have a humanity and a MFL. We have 4 compulsory stem subjects but only English for other students who emotionally be stem students. It’s not good enough to ensure we have well educated Dc. There’s a lot to be said for encouraging a humanity, a MFL, an art and a technology. Choices at A level then stay broad snd media studies isn’t the single option in addition to English! (Yes - exaggerated but gcse means General!)

Your child doesn't need a language. One university (not Oxbridge) used to ask those without a language to do a language module whilst there.

The school's statistics will be better if they do a language, because it will increase their EBacc rate. Their attainment/progress 8 won't be any worse if the grade is low, because only eight subjects are used for that, so they'll use the better-scoring subjects.

The biggest problem MIGHT be timetabling. Hopefully it's fairly flexible across the whole year, so may not be a problem. However if they timetable the top end (who have been given the more restricted choices) separately to the lower end, it's possible that there is a timetable block where everyone in that "band" is doing a language, and that it might not work unless your child moves to the other band, where triple science might not be an option. It's more likely that options are done across the whole year, though, so hopefully not a problem.

It matters for choice. Food tech is not History. History is good prep for loads of degrees. Good tech isn’t and narrows down choices at A level and beyond. Good schools expect at least one humanity at gcse. They do this for a reason. The best academic Dc (excluding stem) will have a humanity and a MFL. We have 4 compulsory stem subjects but only English for other students who emotionally be stem students. It’s not good enough to ensure we have well educated Dc. There’s a lot to be said for encouraging a humanity, a MFL, an art and a technology. Choices at A level then stay broad snd media studies isn’t the single option in addition to English! (Yes - exaggerated but gcse means General!)

DD certainly can manage the MFL (she's been predicted grade 6-7 after her yr9 mock exams), and as I explained she isn't shying away from harder/academic subjects at all. Why would someone looking for easy options choose triple science when combined is the standard option?

She is taking all the other academic options that the school is offering (unless she opted for both History and Geography), the only one she's not keen on is French. And as her career interest and academic strengths are in STEM field a MFL doesn't seem a priority.

Everyone else is saying that the only restriction of not having a MFL at GCSE is that it prevents a student going on to study it at A Level or higher ed. But you're telling me that DD's GCSE choices is really narrowing down her future options for A Level. Which sounds like total nonsense. Like many other kids, DD has absolutely no interest in persuing MFL at a higher level. The chances of her changing her mind on that are miniscule. So she's not hamstringing herself is she.

I get that we want a good general educated population at GCSE level, but we can't all be linguists. Same as we can't all be scientists. If a child was more interested and achieving higher in MFL than science, would you be telling them that they should take triple science instead of a second MFL? Why do we need everyone to be a linguist? Especially when modern tech has given us such good real time translation capabilities through our mobile devices. I'd say a MFL is less relevant than ever before, it'd be a bit like making kids use slide rules today instead of a digital calculator.

DD could study French and then in the future find that German (or some other language) would have been more useful to her. In that regard, it seems bonkers to specialise on just one foreign language when there are so many others available. Why do schools only offer the bog standard European languages? They're probably the least useful in todays global market. They should be offering more worldwide relevant languages like Japanese and Mandarin. Maybe then people would see MFL as a more useful qualification?

And it does seem that our education system is pushing specialisation at GCSE level more than ever. When I chose my own GCSE options, there was basically only 1 extra choice that was a bit outside the box. DD's school is also offering Level 2 Automotive Maintenance and Level 2 Health and Social care as options (in place of 2 GCSEs). That's got to be far more specialisation than anything academic on offer?

I did GCSE French (as it was compulsory), and I've never used it once in the 3 decades since. I think it is the most useless subject I've ever studied, whereas all my other GCSE subjects have come in useful occasionally. I'm pretty sure I'd have made use of stuff learned in iMedia too, if it had existed back then. I guess I'm self taught in that field to some extent.

Yet with all that, I haven't tried to steer DD's choices at all, just listened to what she wants to do.

Dd1 took a health and social care btec. I was a bit dubious at the time but she says it was the most useful subject she ever took and the only one she's ever been asked about at interview (she's a physio currently doing a Msc)

DD took 2 x MFL and triple Science. Sciences are pushed. Most schools don’t care a fig about MFL. DH employs engineers. Lots of them are good at Engineering but their written English in reports is poor. You need a bit of everything to function. As I said, the brightest manage everything. Not stem and not much else.

The timetabling issue was a concern of mine too. I could well imagine that if she switched geography to the option block to replace the MFL choices then she could end up being in a low set for geography because that's the timetabling slot where all the kids that aren't doing a MFL will be having geography lessons. I put this to two teachers last night (including the head of year, who suggested it), and they claimed this wouldn't be the case. I am sceptical as to how they can make all the options combinations work within the timetable restrictions.

It is a poorly performing school (as are most of the others round here unfortunately - all of them are 10% below the national average for GCSE results). I would have preferred DD to go to one of the other schools, as they looked better to me. But I gave her the choice to go where she wanted, something I think is important, because if I pushed her to go somewhere else and she hated it, she could underperform badly. There's a lot to be said about being happy at school and enjoying your education, it's got to be a huge motivator to succeed.

You've got to understand that this is a struggling school in a deprived area. They are trying to cater for the audience that they have, and unfortunately that means that their intake is predominantly a lot of kids who are underachieving academically on arrival. So they don't offer a massive choice of academic GCSE subjects, and the maximum no of GCSE's it's possible to take is 9. Given the options they have on offer, it's not possible to choose 2x MFL and triple science.

I'd have rather DD went to a better school, but this was her choice, and most of the other local schools are no better. The only one that is is oversubscribed and we're out of their catchment area. We did consider trying for grammar school, but that's an hour each way on the train and the kids who've been privately educated at primary age tend to win all the places there anyway.

DD is thriving at her school (maybe only because the average standard there is below national average), so I'm glad that she's doing well and happy, even if a better school might have pushed her on to slightly better final grades. I'm more concerned about how her younger siblings will do, as they aren't so studious or strong academically, and I fear those are the sort of kids that the school is failing because they aren't able to pull themselves above the masses and achieve higher.

I've no idea why you're bringing written English into the discussion? That's a compulsory subject and all your DH's engineers will have got a least a C grade GCSE in it. It's presumably their native language and still they're struggling So what does that say about compulsory subjects at GCSE?

And that's not my experience at all, most good 'real' engineers (as in degree qualified, and probably chartered) have excellent written English skills. Unfortunately the term 'engineer' is applied to many lesser roles these days, where they're actually describing technicians, perhaps that's where your DH is actually finding that people have poor English skills?

I think my own English is pretty good (without any particular effort from me), but I'm hopeless at foreign languages, my head simply isn't wired for it. The two are very different subjects.

I have brought it in because you mentioned stem. English is needed by stem and yes, employees are English but some cannot write it well enough for a professional report to go unchecked. It’s pathetic. Often overseas employees are better. A C at gcse is a pretty low level and not good enough for professional reports. The fact that people do not see the need to write well is poor.

It’s interesting isn’t it how we are roundly told off if we are not wired for maths but are perfectly ok with not being wired for MFL. I also know many schools do not bother with 2xMFL. They do triple science though. So that’s all ok then. Anyone gifted at MFL can go away and not be catered for. It’s making an assumption that these Dc cannot learn. They can learn science though? Why are others not catered for?

Also it’s a very ignorant position to say that because you haven’t spoken a MFL, that the benefits of learning a MFL are limited to speaking it. Obviously (to many) they are not. This is undoubtedly why the Brits live in their Brexit bubble. They cannot be bothered to learn anything about anyone else. Deprived area or not, it’s a poor attitude.

@TizerorFizz you are being pretty vitriolic on this thread. Choices at GCSE are limited and the OP’s DD is already doing a number of academic subjects. Doing French or Media isn’t going to make any difference to her life in the long run, getting the best gcse grades she can is more important.

My dd only ever did 9 months of a foreign language in yr 7. Never any other time.

She has a masters degree at a top uni and a good career.

The Ebacc is a government target that schools are supposed to hit. In reality a lot of school only hit it as their students already have a home language different to English. There will be exceptions obvs

www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-baccalaureate-ebacc/english-baccalaureate-ebacc

I do feel like your posts give away a bit about your attitude to mfl which may have rubbed off on your DC. Or at least, you're failing to take the opportunity to sell them to your DC. It's a global world we live in, especially in STEM subjects. Learning French, or whatever, leaves a foot in the door of mfl in general as once you've studied one language you're more equipped to learning others. It follows that not learning any, even to the basic gcse standard, is turning your back on the concept of mfl altogether, which I do see as a shame. It's naive to think french is only useful on holiday. It's an official language of the EU, and of Brussels, it's hq, and having a working knowledge (by no means fluent) has been useful to me in that context, as much for relationship building as anything, though it's also allowed me to read documents in french before they're translated, and get ahead. That's just an example, obviously, I'm not saying learn french so you can be an eu-facing civil servant, but closing your mind to mfl does close down opportunities which seems so unnecessary at this young age.

Fwiw mandarin is an option in many if my local schools

The MFL push is mainly government led, there are targets and incentives for meeting those targets.

DS hated French (much to my dismay as I’m the MFL subject lead and a total Francophile). He didn’t take it at GCSE, taking computer science instead. He’s chosen to learn Japanese out of school, alongside his a levels and EPQ. He enjoys the language, the tuition and has put in far more effort than he did to French.

No comment was made by any of his university choices about his lack of GCSE in a language. He’s off to study international relations next year.

So many people have a masters now that’s utterly irrelevant. At masters you have drilled down into a specialist subject. Luckily you don’t need a broad education to get one or large numbers of DC wouldn’t.

@longestlurkereverLoads of parents are anti MFL. I was crap at them too. However my DDs tried their hardest to do them. I fully supported them to be better than I was and I totally value MFLs. Especially now. They didn’t walk away when it’s tough.

Not having a MFL at gcse wouldn't have impacted my dcs at all. And I say that as someone who took three at gcse and did French A level.

I was sold this line with DS1. He suffered through Spanish GCSE and got his worst grade in it. He would rather have done DT which as he is now doing fine art would have been more useful... it was a lie he has never been asked for a language GCSE.
DS2 didn't bother with an MFL and has 3 medicine offers for Sept
DD is doing French which she enjoys and is good at. But it is extremely hard. She says the Listening Paper esp is completely impossible to do very well in unless you speak French already at home. Its impossible to have the exposure to the amount of vocab needed without spending disproportionate hours on it when she has 10 subjects to revise. Her teacher agrees with this. The difficulty in getting a good grade actually puts the brightest off. It is her worst predicted grade by at least 2 levels and she works as hard on it but the grade boundaries are pushed up by native/ second language speakers. And at A level in her school only 1 or 2 a year take it who dont have it as their first or second language at home. So hardly exposing more people to foreign language!!!

Yes I feel guilty for encouraging dd to do French gcse. She got a 5 which was her worst grade. It was the listening paper which was her downfall. I remember working through some with her and thinking oh . This is hard. And I speak French quite well! She appeared to be doing well in lessons, watched a lot of French films and we spoke a bit of French at home. She really regrets taking it.

The higher listening paper is truly fiendish... DD gets low 5s routinely despite working really hard at it. Hoping her great marks in the other papers will bump her up but in reality the best she can do is a 6/7. She has straight 9s everywhere else.
And yes 7 is still great but in this world of teen comparisons it sticks out for her. And the work she has to do to get that 7 is not really worth it. Wish she hadn't bothered.

I think that the issue is native speakers. It's a bit stupid to have the same exam tbh.

Dd was predicted a high 6 and was hoping for a 7. She was gutted

So true. I have many French friends and their DCs have got 9s in GCSE French so easily, when they are getting average results in other subjects, so they are not exceptionally bright. They are immersed in the language at home, on holiday several times a year. You just can't replicate it for a non-French speaking kid.

My DS is also in year 9 and although he is OK in French and gets average marks, thoroughly despises studying it. I studied it to GCSE level and have helped him a bit. I would have liked him and his sister (who's in yr8 and gets top marks in French) to take it up at GCSE but they are both vehemently opposed to it.

I felt misled by school that the EBACC was an additional qualification for the students (if they did well in English, Maths, sciences, a humanity and a MFL) and it turns out it’s just another way the school are judged (number of students doing that range of subjects) and of no benefit to the individual. My son did Citizenship in Y10 - they had to choose that or RS to do a year early, and it was a really interesting course.

iMedia isnt a dumping ground or a lesser subject, in fact is is probably THE most important subject for the future ie the Metaverse, web.3, the language of the metaverse and the future. Those who can speak that language will be well equipped for the future...