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Secondary education

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Original poster

NEA - ChatGTP

59 replies

Cliff1975 · 21/03/2023 16:54

So, my DS2 who is in year 13 has just completed his History NEA. We have had a letter home from school to say he has been using Chatbot GTP and this will be reported to the exam board. Does anyone have experience?

OP posts:
Original poster
Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 08:29

Thank you all for your advice - I will do this. The school sent us a print out of his search history showing when he had accessed it but not what he had searched.

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 22/03/2023 08:36

It's malpractice. Look at the JCQ regs, section 5.11.
My recollection is that the exam board will communicate with the school but that their decision will not be known until results. But that may not be correct.

user18 · 22/03/2023 08:41

I've spoken to my DC off the back of this thread to see whether they're aware of it being used in school. Mine are at Year 13 A level stage and Year 11 GCSE stage. Both said they've had so many talks at school about it and about how the teachers can spot the difference in style a mile off. Younger DC has said he knows that some people use it for homework and haven't been caught (yet).

Its going to have a major impact on schools (and the rest of the world as the technology develops).

longmayitcontinue · 22/03/2023 10:48

Sorry haven't got an answer for you, OP, I'm sorry you and your son is in this situation. It must be so difficult for students everywhere to avoid it. They all know about ChatGBT (whatever they might say) and it's not a big leap from using Google to then using ChatGBT, although of course it is cheating.

Saying that, the whole NEA issue has always been fraught as SO many students use their parents to 'input' (read: write the essays). It ranges from literally writing the essays to heavy editing to just a quick proof read. But not all kids have access to parents who have the ability to write A* essays so quite unfair.

U suspect that NEA (non exam assessments) and other assessed homework will soon be a thing of history and kids will need to do the work at school, where they can be supervised.

Tricky!

user18 · 22/03/2023 10:57

longmayitcontinue · 22/03/2023 10:48

Sorry haven't got an answer for you, OP, I'm sorry you and your son is in this situation. It must be so difficult for students everywhere to avoid it. They all know about ChatGBT (whatever they might say) and it's not a big leap from using Google to then using ChatGBT, although of course it is cheating.

Saying that, the whole NEA issue has always been fraught as SO many students use their parents to 'input' (read: write the essays). It ranges from literally writing the essays to heavy editing to just a quick proof read. But not all kids have access to parents who have the ability to write A* essays so quite unfair.

U suspect that NEA (non exam assessments) and other assessed homework will soon be a thing of history and kids will need to do the work at school, where they can be supervised.

Tricky!

I suspect the number of children who have this level of support are extremely low. I barely understood the question in DS1 A Level History coursework let alone had enough knowledge to write an A star worthy essay (literally only four marks can be dropped in order to get A star in history coursework) on US economic interventionism in 1970s South East Asia.

Original poster
Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 12:40

It is correct though some students have their own room, computer and a quiet environment, some do not, some have siblings that have previously studied the same courses and apparently in the circles of the rich you can pay people to write essays for you.

OP posts:
DoughnutDreams · 22/03/2023 13:22

Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 12:40

It is correct though some students have their own room, computer and a quiet environment, some do not, some have siblings that have previously studied the same courses and apparently in the circles of the rich you can pay people to write essays for you.

Paying someone to write your essay would also get you disqualified. It's the same principal really and students are most definitely aware of the consequences of submitting work that is not their own.

DoughnutDreams · 22/03/2023 13:23

Principle! 🤦‍♀️

user18 · 22/03/2023 14:36

Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 12:40

It is correct though some students have their own room, computer and a quiet environment, some do not, some have siblings that have previously studied the same courses and apparently in the circles of the rich you can pay people to write essays for you.

Also not things you should be mentioning in your son's defence..

Hollyhead · 22/03/2023 14:42

If he’s used it to research it’s not much different to using google and I wouldn’t consider malpractice. If he’s used it to actually write a response then it is. The school should investigate thoroughly before reporting.

QuertyGirl · 22/03/2023 14:50

This is a learning experience for him- don't cheat.

I'd be encouraging him to face the consequences.

Have you discussed with him why what he did was wrong?

Original poster
Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 15:22

I have discussed with him why it is wrong of course. He is adamant that he only used it for research - i'm not so sure. The whole thing is a nightmare.

OP posts:
QuertyGirl · 22/03/2023 15:32

Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 15:22

I have discussed with him why it is wrong of course. He is adamant that he only used it for research - i'm not so sure. The whole thing is a nightmare.

Fair enough.

It's not even safe for that. It's still at the bit of fun state of devil

user18 · 22/03/2023 15:36

Can't you just get him to log on in front of you and show you?

Clearly it's cheating either way though. I've just as a test put in my DC's history NEA title to see what it brings up. It gives a basic structure of a decent, well worded and grammatically accurate essay. It saves literally hours and hours of work. That isn't research, that's outright cheating. I've asked it various work related technical questions too. It brings up the answers. That isn't research however you try to spin it.

I really feel for you. And for him. Kids do stupid things. They don't think things through properly and their brains are not fully developed. The most important thing is that he learns from this and you as his parents help him to find a way through and get to where he wants to be rather than to have this become a defining moment in his life where everything seems hopeless and overwhelming. Thats a dangerous place for teenagers to be. He's lucky in that he only needs low grades to get onto his course (if I've understood that correctly)

AtomicBlondeRose · 22/03/2023 15:43

If they were using school laptops to do NEA work in school then all the arguments about parental help, places to work at home and so on are pretty stupid. It seems like the school have given them the time and resources to do the NEA work in school so it’s irreversible whether someone else has their own desk etc.

ChatGPT exists and it can be a useful starting point when you’re stuck with a blank page but NOT when the task is 100% about your own writing, ability to draw on sources and come up with your own line of argument. Anybody whose ever met a teenager knows that as soon as school block one site they find a way round it, so that’s not much of an argument either.

Original poster
Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 17:33

Well he was caught using it in a History lesson when he wasn't supposed to be working on his NEA. Now we as adults get this his teenage brain thinks they are punishing him for working.

OP posts:
MrsHamlet · 22/03/2023 17:50

Has he signed the candidate declaration?

user18 · 22/03/2023 17:56

Cliff1975 · 22/03/2023 17:33

Well he was caught using it in a History lesson when he wasn't supposed to be working on his NEA. Now we as adults get this his teenage brain thinks they are punishing him for working.

I don’t think you can use the teenage brain argument that far. If your child is intelligent enough to write an a level history nea, he is intelligent enough to understand he’s being sanctioned for cheating.

I only made the teenage brain point to emphasise that they make silly decisions when teenagers.

QuentininQuarantino · 22/03/2023 18:14

It’s an amazing tool and I use it in class as a teaching aid. My MFL students have tried submitting essays written by it but it is very easily proven by a phd style viva - if they’re unable to explain verbally ANY of what they’ve written. Of course MFL cheating is much easier to detect than history though.

What I don’t understand is how seeing proof of him using it is proof that he used it for that particular piece of coursework. How the school can report him without hard evidence.

MrsHamlet · 22/03/2023 18:30

Because we have to report malpractice:

inform the awarding body immediately of any alleged, suspected or actual incidents of malpractice or maladministration, involving a candidate or a member of staff, by completing the appropriate documentation

yoozanaym · 23/03/2023 07:16

"Research" for essay writing has always been about reading other people's work, pulling out relevant points, re-writing them in your own words, and organising them in a structured way. ChatGPT is just automating the process. But it can't "sense-check" as well as a human can, and it can only ever be as good as the source information it uses. It will get better in future, and have lots of uses. Schools need to have clear policies on it - their students can't become the AI native experts of the future if they're not allowed to play with cutting-edge AI tech at school, so schools shouldn't block it, but obviously history students shouldn't be using it when writing their assessments.

user18 · 23/03/2023 08:19

yoozanaym · 23/03/2023 07:16

"Research" for essay writing has always been about reading other people's work, pulling out relevant points, re-writing them in your own words, and organising them in a structured way. ChatGPT is just automating the process. But it can't "sense-check" as well as a human can, and it can only ever be as good as the source information it uses. It will get better in future, and have lots of uses. Schools need to have clear policies on it - their students can't become the AI native experts of the future if they're not allowed to play with cutting-edge AI tech at school, so schools shouldn't block it, but obviously history students shouldn't be using it when writing their assessments.

But it’s the automation of the process that’s the issue. What is the point in a teacher giving a grade for an essay if a student has literally just typed the essay question into the programme and hit the generate button. They’ve learned nothing from the process and the result shows nothing about their understanding, their eloquence, their ability to pull out the important facts and discard unreliable information etc.

Sparklfairy · 23/03/2023 08:24

Middletoleft · 21/03/2023 16:59

Not that difficult apparently as the universities are on the ball with software to detect it.

Not schools I realise but presumably the software is easily available.

They can have software, but it's fairly useless. ChatGPT have even developed their own detection software and that's not 100% reliable either! I've tested it myself.

A big problem is it was always okay to use tools like Grammarly and Quillbot to help you reword and correct stuff, but these tend to have a certain AI style of writing/tone which the detector can be overzealous with. Even material I've written with no tools whatsoever except my own brain, detectors have come up with a score of less than 100% human. Not much less, but not 100% certain it's human.

yoozanaym · 23/03/2023 08:28

But it’s the automation of the process that’s the issue

It's the automation that's the power of it - that's why it's called "artificial intelligence" - it's getting closer to what a human brain does, and in some cases will do a better job than some human brains. Schools need to acknowledge it in their policies and make it clear what it can and can't be used for, because it's not going away.

Middletoleft · 23/03/2023 08:38

Sparklfairy · 23/03/2023 08:24

They can have software, but it's fairly useless. ChatGPT have even developed their own detection software and that's not 100% reliable either! I've tested it myself.

A big problem is it was always okay to use tools like Grammarly and Quillbot to help you reword and correct stuff, but these tend to have a certain AI style of writing/tone which the detector can be overzealous with. Even material I've written with no tools whatsoever except my own brain, detectors have come up with a score of less than 100% human. Not much less, but not 100% certain it's human.

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Very interesting @Sparklfairy Do you mind if I ask how you got involved in the testing?