Secondary appeal help please!

[Summer1912]

We have got our second choice as the distance has shrunk this year so up to 10 of dc classmates havent gotten into first choice either.

Basis of my appeal for first choice

Picking up second lang in Y8
Clubs important for social issues - 1 friend etc and as hates pe it wouldnt be sport
Science club
coding club
GCSE/Alevel Computing
Swimming as sport (under 10 lessons at primary & DC hates other sport (ASD/ADHD referral)
Standard school day vs a day with 2 tutor times and lunch after 1:30 leaving only 1 lesson after lunch (not good with long times between breaks when concentration issues.
activity week - good for social issues/teamwork which school reports list as issue
Foreign exchange trips - social/language

choice 2 has a tie and shirt with collar done up as uniform which may not be good with sensory issues

evidence
Spanish club Y3 (closed due to covid)
Video of DC speaking language for a badge activity
relative does translation and mum has 3 gcse langs and 1 alevel
Science club when available
Does coding at external club.

Bright child - so realistic re abilities as picked up reading quickly and SPAG etc exceeding.

DS chose school 1 and has struggled (school refusal on 1st march) since found out. And is asking to check waiting list etc.

Opinions on whether this might be strong enough to win appeal?

And can i email school to find out number on roll in each year group. Theyve taken several appeals in one year previously. But that doesnt mean that they even started in Sept with over PAN. Is it relevant if there is usually kids leaving eg our primary only about about 1/3 of the kids have left over the 7 years.

Hello OP you could use the fact that your ds is currently being assessed as part of your evidence. However the fact that he is "bright"cannot be used as part of an appeal, because comprehensive schools do not select pupils by ability.

To win an appeal, you need to persuade the panel that the prejudice (detriment) to your child in not attending the school outweighs the prejudice to the school and its existing pupils in accommodating an additional pupil. You therefore need to present solid evidence of why your child needs a place at that school.

Some of the arguments you mention are stronger than others, but (in my view) they add up to a decent case (although that’s not a guarantee that you’ll win - a lot depends on the strength of the school’s case for not admitting). Don’t, though, send in video evidence (the panel might not have the tech to watch it) and don’t talk about family members’ interest in languages - the focus is on your child.

agree with panel chair, focus on the reason that he needs THAT school. Don't mention why he can't go to the other school, but why THIS school has things that he needs

Had appeal and lost.
I'm gutted and surprised as school was was weak. Lots of incorrect numbers. Ofsted numbers on roll showed they were 7 over on average every year.
I questioned quite a bit but didn't feel comfortable to keep going on about how say the light and power would t be affected. I showed they should still have extra desks.

their only valid point was physical class size.
the panel went on a lot about numbers of den students but thats irrelevant as they are coping with it. They had say 5 echo incoming over last few years total but claimed to now have 36!!
their pan data showed at pan in every yeargroup which again I don't trust as they've had successful appeals one year taking 3 extra and if not that shows it has dropped between sept and may from.how much they were over.

I had letters from senco and ed psych. Who said she needs enhanced transition.

but my question is how much are the school supposed to question you during stage 2??

also I was asked heavily and accusatorily by the panel about not picking other schools.
why didn't I look round xyz? Made me quite angry because they were like building a case as if I should have picked school x, however school x whilst our catchment has 0 students from our village. There is free transport and elsewhere it's say £500 a year but still no-one chooses. And I'm sure the open day clashed. There is no viable public transport to this one so can't go in late or stay late etc
School y - again close on distance but into I think would be public bus. 0 students from her school.
But school z ludicrous! They do a lottery or on postcodes and take 0 outside that.!

But it may be related that panel seemed to think dc has an echp. So again accusing why I didn't pick school /happy with dc going into and unit. When we couldn't pick that.
So maybe they thought I could pick any school.

School came at me about the coding is where I said somewhere else about dc not liking maths. Implying contradiction. But I explained dc is good at maths but just doesn't enjoy it.School
Then saying how kids need to be selected for both extra lang effectively computing as I think they said by ks2 says results. So I did say I'm sure dc would be fine to achieve.
The panel asked why I don't ask given school for dc not to wear tie. I said dc wouldn't want to be different and I'm sure would still get in trouble if not wearing.

School said about school bus not having to run as not catchment and dc might not get a place.

I never said In my appeal anything untrue but school made it seem like none of the factors mattered as subject to change of your kid would t be able to do it.

Tbh I don't disagree with schools comments totally, but because it's coming from them it seems like they are in control of these factors and even made sound right even when they were talking rubbish. I tried to contest almost all points but was told running out of time and obviously I wasn't expecting to justify to school more to.panel who might understand more than school.

My replies would have been different if I'd had the questions inadvance.

The panel asked what clubs she does out of school. But didn't follow up? Seemed confused about me saying coding is out of school despite my evidence showing that. No questions about other clubs I mentioned in my letter.

I've no idea how they came to this decision. In contrast to parents and sen co and ed psych.
Feel it may hinge on
Clubs can change
Dc may not be academic enough for coding or computing or languages - in the panel mind
School saying their school was noisy as more students - but I don't agree as the diff is it's much more outside.So kid would queue only with their class.

I don't feel anyone could win without waiting on ehcp and having diagnosis.
Because school can always
-minimise importance

• Say it might not run
• Say they are louder dc even if not true

Could I have won with a diagnosis and letter from consultant I don't know?
However the process is rubbish having to provide all info in advance -months to be picked apart.
School contesting
Panel suggesting you could easiky have picked a school that would have spaces that would have these things which is clearly rubbish and in fact offensive. And unhelpful in any case as to change mind now would probably mean waitlists etc.
And actually my dc was only rferred Feb despite inviting issues for years and impossible to know her needs last oct! Or.that the satirists would now be --so hard to get on or take 2 years.
So boiled down to lack of knowledge of local admissions and understanding of sen process and child.

And to top it off you can't complain about the result in a way that would change it.

Not see how other people were successful in part to decide this is all pointless as only agreeing xyz

I will be going to ombudsman but waiting to hear the reasons.

Seriously suspecting school massage their GCSE and marvel data and manage out students e.g. .
Is it discrimination in not sure as I couldn't see if they queried so much for other appeals.
It certainly is open to that.

TBH, none of those reasons sound particularly strong to my lay person's ears.

I have a relative who sits on those panels and advised me at length when we were stuck. It made me realise that grounds do need to be very specific and distinctive to succeed.

I'm sure you'll get knowledgeable advice tomorrow but what's your fallback option?

Maybe post-diagnosis you'll have more options?

I have sat through numerous appeals - with Headteachers/LA reps- and your case does not sound strong at all to me at the moment.

Most of what you say most schools can provide, or you can provide it as a parent (swimming), or your child just has to get on with it whether they like a particular thing of not (schools with hundreds or even 1500+ students can not provide what every child likes and children get on with it- it's life). Every mainstream school has very bright children.

Clubs, trips, GCSE and A level courses run or don't run depending on take-up year by year. No guarantees apart from big subjects like Maths, English, Science, Humanities, an MFL. School day times change. Uniforms change. None of these are things a school will guarantee.

An EHCP would have been important in your argument for a place.

In fact, if you had an EHCP, you wouldn't need to go to an appeals panel at all. Placemat selection for an EHCP is done by agreement or SN tribunal. Which might still help you down the line.

There is no answer to your question about how much the school is supposed to question you. They can ask as many or as few questions as they want.

I personally think the panel shouldn't have asked about other schools as the appeal should only be about the appeal school and the allocated school, but there is no specific bar on them asking such questions in the Appeals Code.

I doubt the panel thought your daughter has an EHCP. If she did, you wouldn't have been appealing in this way as the previous poster says.

As you talked about what your daughter wants to do at GCSE stage, it is perfectly valid for the school to point out that their offering may have changed by then.

Evidence from your daughter's consultant may have helped. You didn't have to provide all evidence months in advance. The clerk should have given you a deadline for submitting evidence so that it could be circulated to the panel before the hearing. That would normally be a few weeks before the hearing, not months. The school should get a copy of your case at the same time as you receive a copy of their case.

Contrary to what you say, you can complain about the result in a way that would change it. I see you have referred the case to the ombudsman. If they rule in your favour, they will order a fresh hearing with a different panel. It will be as if the original hearing never happened. Indeed, you can submit a completely different case if you want, including adding new evidence such as a letter from your daughter's consultant.

As PanelChair advised, you had a decent case, but it wasn't a guaranteed win.

You mention that you haven't had the reasons for the panel's decision. You should receive those shortly. That will provide more clarity on their thought process. In deciding, the ombudsman will look at the clerk's notes of the panel's discussion as well as the decision letter. They will look at whether there were any breaches of the Appeals Code and, if so, whether you were disadvantaged. They will also look at whether the panel was acting truly independently and whether their decision is contrary to the evidence. However, the ombudsman is not a second appeal. They will only look at evidence that was available to the panel and will consider whether their decision was one that could be made on that evidence. The ombudsman may disagree with the panel's decision, but that is not enough to justify a fresh hearing. The decision must be one that no reasonable panel could arrive at based on the evidence they had available to them.

The ehcp definitely was confused as she said about why i didnt apply for asd unit at school 2. Which i said as its ehcp only. Dont you have ehcp -no, not likely to set one as no 'sen' meaning educationally behind. So they seemed to think should at least be in progress. And may have said you would be able to pick. Which as we are saying here is silly as kids with ehcp wouldnt likely be appealing necessarily (or at least it wouldnt mainly be ehcp appeals as its separate so just in progress ones. But imo also lacks understanding of which needs would get ehcp. And if not that then how hard it is to get one and how long it takes.

School didnt actua!ly ask me anything they stated things. Like 'the extra language is german'. Which isnt correct according to their own site it can be starting spanish or french too in y8...

The maths for coding. Their site says ideally be in sets 1-3 for maths.
Which isnt what i think she said i think she said its based on ks2 predictions though could be effectively the same.

Will she be in those sets who knows? However predicted only 106 due to not finishing past papers. However could easily score 109 right up to 120 as its accuracy errors so unpredictable. Shes as likely or more to go wrong on an easy question. Probably its the asd/adhd due to attention and slower processing etc.
With adhd meds could easily be 120. As the questions arent stretching enough.

Next time i would not
1 show a sen dc round a school it has caused lots of issues
2 would refer to the asd as aspergers and specifically say not learning issues and is ahead.

3 it is very hard to argue a case without being abrupt/rude when asked about say the schools which werent considered for what should be obvious reasons.
So actually i might have included why i only applied for these 2 in my letter.

Overall im angry as the provision of schools as what im fighting for should be standard. At least the school providing
Swimming
Extra lang
Computing gcse and a level
A standard timerable with lunch before 1:30
Not having one day a week with completely different times

Also ironically
School case says they choose to teach lang/math/science in classes of at least 32 in higher sets

School 2 told me at open day they were oversubscribed and went over so had some classes of 31+. (The oversubscribed isnt ever true..)

So even at the school which seems to have places,well either school chances are ddwill be in classes of over 30. Because it will depend how many kids end up at school 2 as if not ratio of 30 etc...

Obvious other irony being school 2 probably having an empty asd unit as parent using ehcp to go to school 1.

I would suggest panels need training on
Wait lists for assessment (we're in the refusal to assess unless severe area..)
Delays in getting ehcps
Who ehcps are for. (Yes maybe we could have applied, i looked it didnt really cover the issues and generally seems more for if behind). How could my dc cost 4k of school budget. ?? Shes seen the ed psych, having semh ta support.
Would obviously benefit from 1-2-1 and might actually have been doing her maths work.

Thing is we dont turn up to asd assessment etc to find 3 lay people deciding do we?
Having the tie lieky does seem minor but if the kid wont actually go. Wont wear it and ends up constant detention.
Likewise sports -they have to do them attitude, well no then youve been lucky not to know some sen kids. Dd hasnt been doing pe for years at primary. Even when ive paid for tennis she was collecting stones.
She didnt run on sports day y4 - noone noticed. So yes having swimming might seem minor but when she wont be doing any... Saying she wont buy footba!l boots wont do football. Plus it is actually good for asd sensory wise.

Yes clubs minor-or not? When she has no capacity after school to go out and do things. When she can start something and later refuse.
She already does coding -- but its only scratch and so far only has up to y6, most of which are going to school 1 so probably will code there.. So likely only be new y6.

I think with dd if she doesnt want to she wont, doesnt matter consequences.
She has no fear of head teachers etc. Its likely why shes not doing the maths -she can do it.

So in that light it was necessary to have a school she wants to go to.
What is the point if she wont get on/off the bus/leave the house.
I think most dont see how hard it is to make someone do something. You can do tbeir teeth for them/you can pester/you can reward or punish. But if someones determined then once you arent there doing those things to enable them then they dont do it. Punishnent doesnt work as everything escalates and end ul with other very severe issues. But also some things school doesnt communicate she isnt doing -like the music.

Not having experience but this has to be much worse than if dd had learning difficulties i mean mild like dyslexia as - the child isnt disliked by everyone. Isnt excluded from things.
At least the kid goes to school does their lessons. Everything is not a fight.

My child is constantly trying to win against me.
With added impulsivity.

Shes anxious and depressed - doesnt want to 'be here' as in alive. This is unrelated to secondary school issue.
Really has only one friend.
I had to give up on the music (the issue was they moved the lesson to break time). Without support from school (useless) she wasnt taking herself, was supposed to be collected but never was. She wouldnt go, occassionally maybe forgot. Missed 50%, expensive. Ihad involved school and they said she woukd be collected/reminded it didnt happen. (She had previously outright refused to go). We were in a cycle of her not going and getting in trouble losing kindle, going to room. Me angry at school. Even said to school due to sen can you put back out of lunchbreak no!! Ffs!
Failed by school (like several others in her year) issues were obvious in reception (hitting/biting/scratching)
I cant home ed as it took all day to get her todo the math in lockdowns.

Im sure secondary wont fully realise until she wont get off the bus wont do pe and wont go to maths...I
There not 1 kid in 60 who cared as much about which school.

Scouting has been amazing. Since she ran off on a hike with no warning. They really get it. And let her stay longer in cubs, even passed on her info to new leaders into scouts!!!

Whereas school wouldnt previously let her skip singing assembly. Even though ed psych was saying it.

Also note my friends sen dc wasnt invited to school 2 extra transition stuff. Again not severe sen no 1-2-1

I would suggest panels need training onWait lists for assessment (we're in the refusal to assess unless severe area..)

The mechanism for that is SN tribunal.

Delays in getting ehcps

Again: SN tribunal.

Who ehcps are for. (Yes maybe we could have applied, i looked it didnt really cover the issues and generally seems more for if behind).

They are for children who need adjustments to access education. Learning delay or attainment has absolutely nothing to do with it. An EHCP would absolutely cover stipulations like special arrangements for PE, toilets, uniform, music and noisy activities...all of those things. And/or for stipulating a school that can provide all of that.

I think you need to put your energy into the EHCP process and be prepared to go tribunal each time the LA waffle, delay or flout the timescales.

I dont think you understand either assessment i meant gp referral to diagnosis (not clear maybe in my post- but was clear on my appeal doc) and
So i cant go to a tribunal
So i feel the panel wouod have understood that as i never mentioned any ehcp assessment.

Im saying its 2yr wait for asd diagnosis at least. And thats relevant in that its why we have none nor a consultant letter etc. And SW are refusing to add kess severe to diagnosis waitlist.

It makes it appear if there were severe issues you would have diagnosis or yes in process of ehcp. (Which is also a long wait).
Without diagnosis as we can see with my appeal its harder to get adjustments.
A consultant probably would have written that it is important for dc to have xyz at this school.
They honestly could do with knowing about the schools they are talking about because if they hadnt asked i woukdnt have known that they thought my dd shluld or even could go to the asd unit (likely severe kids with learning difficulties) when its 100% impossible as no ehcp.

One school suggested was also a choir school (to which dd pointed out to me after was obviousky no as she cant stand singing -needs ear defenders. And that school takes from specific postcodes with others getting in 0. Again backing up the case that the panel were confused as obviously with ehcp we could (also takes from this area chikdren in care.)
They looked up chikdren going to schools by postcode. Obviously ours were split over the 2 schools i picked. Not quite sure why they did that. But when you think thats pretty irrelevant and it would look like our neighbour didnt get into school 1 but they chose school 2. But also that there are seriously lots of adopted kids here. So they can go to the choir school.
Some kids are sibs of much older kids so they could get in etc.

Would an in progress ehcp child have to follow standard appeals? Presumably?

Hopefully no weight is put on not having applied to more schools or certain places.

If you ask for a particular school to be named and the LA refuses to do so, you appeal to the First Tier Tribunal (Special Education Needs and Disability). Similarly, if the named school refuses to admit the child, you go to the Tribunal.

If the child does not yet have an EHCP, the appeal is dealt with by the normal appeal panel. The fact that the child is in the process of getting an EHCP is not relevant for such appeals.

What does this mean then?

Who ehcps are for. (Yes maybe we could have applied, i looked it didnt really cover the issues and generally seems more for if behind).

ECHPs are not "for if behind".

You're being strangely stubborn about the route open to you.

Our last has a graduated response.
The doc has
Semh
Comm and lang
Physical /sensory
Academic

How much would you need in the severe bits? Will post link

The refusal letter has no info! Some points each side then just decided on schools side. But no mention of my sen co letter/go referral/ ed psych document.

Should it contain more why I was expecting the detail of
Like the could be not worn
Might not be able to do lang/ coding/ computing etc?

The big document re appeals says it should be clear why.

I also asked senco and didn't think likely ehcp , though I knew that as we've had no review of any needs at all. And they won't realise how much better dd could be doing in maths etc.

Why I think she should have a plan of some sort

• Previous throwing sticks sometimes at other girl
• Has 2 kids doesn't want to be with info above girl (to do with singing)
• School said dd shouldn't go on residential (teacher went off sick so dc did go)

Dd chose not to put on suntan lotion on trip (out all day in sun) saw other kids apply and was told/asked directly (sensory issues) Not doing pe Not doing music Not doing singing assembly Won't go to school disco Has 1 friend who's on asd pathway. Rigidity around unusual things like Houses in secondary Does like 3 maths questions in whole lesson School unable to get her to pick her book up (this march) Dc2 friends brother apparently doesn't like her as an example (he hardly sees her) Started random burping during SATs and ongoing at home /scouts etc

Obviously now teacher is off and has different one/s and DD can be different depending on teacher. Also lot less work pressure.I

I don't really think dd masks it's more she gets triggered or anxious.

They would see issues every day if
Dd had to work with those 2 kid she
if she played with anyone but 1 friend
If she had to do music/or pe
Meeting new people

This is without big noisy secondary with lots of diff teachers
Reports in y5 e.g. Had not meeting or and music. Not behaviour attention or any of those.

Your average kid doesn't get
excluded from an out of school ativity
Told can't go on residential/can't stay overnight
To to 1 party a year.
Can't walk home 10m by self
Refuses to the laces or wear watch
Not invited to anyone's house.

Nothing has been resolved by school interventions.

In fact scouting have done more to improve anything. Encouragement to do activities. Made a seconder. And residential would have been a lot harder without these. It's taken more seriously generally due to nature of activities.
Within a picked school mostly eat down with same class. Dd 'seems' ok.

Have you actually looked around your choice 2 (allocated school)? From reading your posts, you have some potential good reasons, but on balance the detriment to the school from admitting may have out balanced your argument.

If the den is like there learning support, they could already know they have high sen needs coming in as info from primary schools will have been shared and another child not automatically placed there with sen could be really detrimental. They don't get extra funding per se for an SEN child.

The number of EHCP'S could have risen during the years as children attending got them.

The panel may have been alluding to appeal school not having a unit, but allocated school having a unit, which means there are more specialists employed by the school (we applied to a school based on a resource unit, which meant they had certain adaptions to curriculum as standard not adjustments.

There is no guarantee for any school, even with an EHCP, it is a preference.

Got in today off waitlist.
So dc missed the transition days, the bus list and having any friends in class

I assume OP that your dc would still like to go to this school.
I suspect that the school only realised that there were place(s) available when some pupil(s) didn't turn up to the transition days.
Really inconvenient for all concerned when that happens.

Ask for a visit next week, so at least he can be familiar with the school and meet staff.

You really are a glass half empty person aren’t you? Your child has a place in the school they/ you want, and you still aren’t happy!

I hope your child manages to settle into the school in September, try to focus on the positive things until then.

Agree with @viques

It’s not unusual to get places from the waiting list this late. Some are likely to get places even later and even into the first few weeks of term. Ask the school for another visit and whether they can put your child in a class with friends but, given how much you said you wanted a place here, you do sound surprisingly grumpy.