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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

In year transfer

26 replies

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:18

Does anyone know what criteria an admissions authority uses when deciding upon admitting a child via an in year transfer?

Do they have to follow some sort of guidance, or can the governing body (who are the admissions authority in this case) admit whoever they like? Can they exceed their Published Admissions Number if they decide they are happy to do so or not?

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 17/03/2023 17:48

It is the same criteria as for normal admissions.
If they have a space they have to admit whoever is top of the ordered waiting list.
Otherwise I think it needs to go to appeal to go above PAN (could be wrong).

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:51

Thank you. If someone could clarify on the needing to go to appeal bit, I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
LIZS · 17/03/2023 17:55

If they turn you down they should give reason ie. Full and details of how to appeal.

Nimbostratus100 · 17/03/2023 17:58

If it goes over PAN then it needs to go to appeal

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:58

Thank you. I'm hoping to hear from someone on here that they can go above PAN for whatever reason they like when it comes to in year transfers, without the need for an appeal if they are full.

OP posts:
Nimbostratus100 · 17/03/2023 17:59

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:58

Thank you. I'm hoping to hear from someone on here that they can go above PAN for whatever reason they like when it comes to in year transfers, without the need for an appeal if they are full.

No

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:59

Nimbostratus100 · 17/03/2023 17:58

If it goes over PAN then it needs to go to appeal

Is that even for an in year transfer? Where the school is the admissions authority?

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 17/03/2023 18:00

At secondary, the admissions authority can choose to go over PAN if they wish: however, admissions must be ordered according to the published admissions criteria.

If you are refused a place, you have the right to appeal, where you would need to show that the detriment to the school of admitting another pupil was less than the detriment to the pupil of not attending. If you post detail, people here are happy to help.

Nimbostratus100 · 17/03/2023 18:01

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 17:59

Is that even for an in year transfer? Where the school is the admissions authority?

Show quote history

PAN has a reason, going over PAN disadvantages every student in the entire class every single lesson, no it can't be overruled without going to appeal

But if you are talking about someone else, then you don't know if it has gone to appeal, some appeals are very clear cut and very fast

PanelChair · 17/03/2023 18:02

It is (as far as I know) up to the admissions authority, but admissions authorities will rarely voluntarily go above PAN. What usually happens, therefore, is that the school will reject the application on the grounds that there is no vacancy and the parent has the right of appeal against that decision.

As has been said, if there is a vacancy it should be offered to whoever is top of the waiting list. If there is no waiting list, it should be offered to whoever applies for it.

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:03

Thanks to all who have replied.

@PatriciaHolm we are going to appeal the decision of the school not to admit our child for Sept 2023 entry. I am wondering what will happen if we fail to get a place at appeal or via the waiting list.

I am wondering whether the school (when they are their own admissions authority) can decide to admit a child mid way through year 7 or 8 for instance, without the need for another appeal at this point? Even if this will take them over PAN?

OP posts:
Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:04

PanelChair · 17/03/2023 18:02

It is (as far as I know) up to the admissions authority, but admissions authorities will rarely voluntarily go above PAN. What usually happens, therefore, is that the school will reject the application on the grounds that there is no vacancy and the parent has the right of appeal against that decision.

As has been said, if there is a vacancy it should be offered to whoever is top of the waiting list. If there is no waiting list, it should be offered to whoever applies for it.

Thank you. This makes sense.

OP posts:
PanelChair · 17/03/2023 18:10

It is very unlikely that any school would decide to admit an additional pupil mid-year, when this would take them above PAN. As you probably know, you can exercise your right of appeal once a year.

Hersetta427 · 17/03/2023 18:10

you say its an in year transfer but are applying for admission from September 23. Normally in year admissions need to be taken up within a short time of applying - its not normal (or usually allowed) to want a place in 6 months time. why are you not applying for transfer now?

PatriciaHolm · 17/03/2023 18:10

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:03

Thanks to all who have replied.

@PatriciaHolm we are going to appeal the decision of the school not to admit our child for Sept 2023 entry. I am wondering what will happen if we fail to get a place at appeal or via the waiting list.

I am wondering whether the school (when they are their own admissions authority) can decide to admit a child mid way through year 7 or 8 for instance, without the need for another appeal at this point? Even if this will take them over PAN?

They won't just say, oh go on, have a place ;-) you would need to be at the top of the waiting list when a space became available.

The admissions code makes it explicit that An admission authority can choose to admit over PAN (other than at infant/KS1 stage where ICS applies) if they wish, through in-year admissions, but if they did, it would have to be from the waiting list in order.

It is rare, but I have seen a couple of occasions where a school admitted another child over PAN when full but with no waiting list, where there were exceptional circumstances. Schools generally do not voluntarily go over PAN.

Nimbostratus100 · 17/03/2023 18:11

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:03

Thanks to all who have replied.

@PatriciaHolm we are going to appeal the decision of the school not to admit our child for Sept 2023 entry. I am wondering what will happen if we fail to get a place at appeal or via the waiting list.

I am wondering whether the school (when they are their own admissions authority) can decide to admit a child mid way through year 7 or 8 for instance, without the need for another appeal at this point? Even if this will take them over PAN?

no

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:14

Hersetta427 · 17/03/2023 18:10

you say its an in year transfer but are applying for admission from September 23. Normally in year admissions need to be taken up within a short time of applying - its not normal (or usually allowed) to want a place in 6 months time. why are you not applying for transfer now?

We have failed to get a place at our first choice school, so we will appeal this decision in due course.

I am asking what will happen if we are unsuccessful at the appeal for Sept 2023 entey and whether an in year transfer mid way through year 7 or 8 is an option. And what the school is able to do if they so choose. Ive had some good answers, so thank you all.

OP posts:
titchy · 17/03/2023 18:15

Hersetta427 · 17/03/2023 18:10

you say its an in year transfer but are applying for admission from September 23. Normally in year admissions need to be taken up within a short time of applying - its not normal (or usually allowed) to want a place in 6 months time. why are you not applying for transfer now?

I assume OP has applied for a year 7 place to start this September, but is wondering if the appeal fails, whether she can apply again and get in without appealing.

If that is the case OP you need to be aware that you can only appeal one E per year group, so you couldn't appeal in year for a year 7 place if you are appealing now. You would have to wait till your child was in year 8 before you applied again and appealed. Although I believe if there has been a significant change in circumstances you can appeal a second time per year.

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:15

PatriciaHolm · 17/03/2023 18:10

They won't just say, oh go on, have a place ;-) you would need to be at the top of the waiting list when a space became available.

The admissions code makes it explicit that An admission authority can choose to admit over PAN (other than at infant/KS1 stage where ICS applies) if they wish, through in-year admissions, but if they did, it would have to be from the waiting list in order.

It is rare, but I have seen a couple of occasions where a school admitted another child over PAN when full but with no waiting list, where there were exceptional circumstances. Schools generally do not voluntarily go over PAN.

Show quote history

Ok, thank you. The school seem to be saying the waiting list is only maintained until the end of xyz term. So there appears to be no waiting list after this date.

OP posts:
LIZS · 17/03/2023 18:16

I'm not sure you can submit a second appeal for year 7 as an In Year application. Your letter should detail the appeals process.

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:17

titchy · 17/03/2023 18:15

I assume OP has applied for a year 7 place to start this September, but is wondering if the appeal fails, whether she can apply again and get in without appealing.

If that is the case OP you need to be aware that you can only appeal one E per year group, so you couldn't appeal in year for a year 7 place if you are appealing now. You would have to wait till your child was in year 8 before you applied again and appealed. Although I believe if there has been a significant change in circumstances you can appeal a second time per year.

Show quote history

Correct. Thank you.

OP posts:
PanelChair · 17/03/2023 18:18

I agree with PatriciaHolm.

I understand you are thinking through all the options for getting a place at your preferred school, but an in-year application is by no means certain to succeed. If this is a popular school, there’s likely to be a waiting list and no vacancy waiting to be filled. The school won’t say “ok then” just because you’re persistent in asking.

Hersetta427 · 17/03/2023 18:26

Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:15

Ok, thank you. The school seem to be saying the waiting list is only maintained until the end of xyz term. So there appears to be no waiting list after this date.

Show quote history

then the waiting list is restarted - They ask if you still want to be on the waiting list. some may so no as they are settled at their other school, and some may continue to wait. They don't just have no waiting list (unless of course no one wants to come to the school).

Original poster
Dacadactyl · 17/03/2023 18:36

@Hersetta427 thank you. This is also helpful to know.

OP posts:
Takeachance18 · 17/03/2023 19:14

I may be wrong, but if a school has agreed to take extra pupils over PAN, as the cohort progress through they only take from the waiting list once below PAN, not from the number admitted (it maybe due to issues when a cohort gets to GCSE, availability of specialist subject teachers, larger cohort meaning more likely children not getting their option choices, but natural wastage of 20/30 pupils over 3 years is possible.