Child going to grammar but not working at greater depth

[MyBloodyBrother]

Would you be concerned about this if it was your child?

My ds1 is in year 6 and after finding out he’d passed his 11+ back in October got confirmation this week that he got a place at his chosen grammar. It’s a competitive area and although 4 other kids in his class also passed the test and put this particular school as their first choice, my ds was the only one who actually got a place. His 4 classmates had all had tutoring for a couple of years, I hadn’t done that with ds as his dad trained as a maths teacher before retraining and wanted to try and tutor him himself. He did about 3 months worth of tutoring for an hour every weekend.

But, having had his parents evening on Friday his teacher said that he is hoping DS might achieve greater depth for one aspect of his english SATs (ds is a voracious reader) but was predicted that he’d achieve expected standard for the rest. He was looking down his graph to see where ds was on it and I could see he was scoring about 2/3 of the way down.

Would you be concerned about this as a parent? He has very fragile self esteem and I hate the thought of him being at grammar school and being unable to keep up. This was one of the reasons I was reluctant to commit him to 2 years of intensive tutoring. But then equally, he did really well on the 11+ without all the help. I asked his class teacher and he said that it’s a very supportive school so even if he does struggle he’ll be helped.

He's obviously done well to get an offer so he must be very bright.

My experience this year (as a Y6 mum) is that the teachers in our school are erring on the side of caution.

They want to manage expectations.

My girl was GD for everything and now they are being more cautious. I am confident though when compares to nationally, she will be GD in most areas.

These kids have missed a considerable amount of education and my impression is they don't know if there will be allowances for that in this year's SATs.

I would take the place. You can always try and get him into another school later.

I remember being told that the 11+ pass mark was high to ensure that even if you'd just "scraped" a pass, you'd be capable of managing work at a grammar school.

So hopefully it will all be ok.

Fwiw we're the opposite - greater depth in SATS but didn't pass the 11+. I think sometimes you've got to go with what you think is right & trust it'll work itself out.

It seems unusual. Was the test VR & NVR which is quite different to what they study at school? I obviously don't know which school he got into but if the primary school teacher thinks that is supportive then I guess he should be fine.
Maybe look at the GCSE results of the school and see if there are a number of children getting 5 & 6's in their GCSEs. If it is the kind of school where the majority of grades are 8s & 9s and anything below that is considered a poor score then that might impact his mental health. However, if there are a range of scores then I'm sure it would be fine. In our local grammar which is super selective the most common grade is a 9.

What area are you in (i.e. how selective is your grammar school)?

If your DC is going to a superselective that pick the very top end of the population, I'd be worried, I think.

If you live somewhere like Bucks where they take about the top 25% this is pretty normal - I think it's only something like 10% achieve greater depth across the board, so most pupils will be in the same boat as your DC.

a lot depends on the grammar school.
Some will be great at supporting anyone working below the GD level and put in lots of support (remember that they don't have to support students with more severe learning difficulties which does mean that he might get support there whereas he wouldn't get it at an non grammar)

But some are very competititve and he might struggle.
It might also be a SATs thing. So his spelling will not pass the SAT's or his grammar, but in the long run that wouldn't necessareily be a concern.

I would say if he has passed, especially with a low level of tutoring, then he'll be fine.

I am 11+tutor, and I have occasionally had a child who is really strong in 3 areas but weak in one pass the test. (eg amazing English, VR and NVR but weak maths)
They needed support in school, but thrived in every way.

hmm, this isn't true.

11+ doesn't have a pass mark in that sense. It takes the top xx % of the students who sit the exam. So in some years you might pass and the same student may fail in another near

I’m in Devon and he got a place at the school with the highest pass mark in the area. A few years ago it was around the top 10% but since Covid there have been lots of people with kids at prep schools elsewhere in the country taking the exam and moving down if their child gets a place so it’s even more competitive.

That’s reassuring to read @steppemum. His main issue is his terrible handwriting and spelling, even now it’s barely legible. His teacher has said this won’t matter so much next years as, providing he can read his own notes, he’ll be able to type most of his work. He’s certainly not dyslexic or anything like that, just left handed and constantly in a rush to get everything down.

Only two children at our school are working at greater depth for English in yr 6. Neither took the 11+. Four other children passed the 11+ and are going to grammar schools in Plymouth in September. I've been told by our HT that the greater depth for English this year is extremely difficult to get. If your son passed well enough for a place without much tuition he should be fine.

@steppemum you may think this isn't true, but this was direct from the grammar school consortium (5 schools), so it may be true for them.

I have had 2 students over the last few years like this, both were massively underestimated by their primary schools, one school laughed at the idea that he should take the 11+. I assessed him and what was clear was that this was a highly intelligent child who really struggled to record what he could do on paper, due to appalling handwriting.

I suggested to mum that she got an occupational therapist assessment of him, and that if that threw anything up, that she pushed for him to be able to use a computer instead of writing for all his work.
It turns out that he has hypermobile joints, which is a common reason for kids to be unable to write legibly, he started to use an ipad or computer for all written work, so that by the time he headed off to year 7 that was well established. He is flourishing now.

I currently have another similar student. Very clever, and handwriting completely illegible, and cannot write on the line. I have recommended to parents that they push for him to be able to use a computer. With or without an assessment this is an accommodation that schools can choose to do (but possibly not for SATs)

For GCSE etc, if the student normally uses a computer, they can use one in GCSE. They don't need an EHCP or even a doctor's assessment. If that is what they use they can use one for the exams.
My 15 year old was allowed to start using a computer (in grammar school) in year 8 and it was such a relief, her writing is tidy, but very, very slow and her wrists hurt. No diagnosis, but using a computer was sucha relief and has really helped her.

I doubt it.

They only have x number of places. If they have a rigid pass mark, they cannot predict the number who will pass and they may end up over (or under) their PAN.

It sounds like a reassuring statement for parents.

In reality if they have 150 places, they can only off 150 places (well, plus an amount to allow for the normal changes between taking exam and taking up places)

They do not like to have eg 300 pass and then 150 kids not be able to get a place on allocation day, so the pass mark for each year is set at the point where the number of students passing is approximately equivalent to the number of places on offer.

Honestly, I've been doing this for a long time, that is how it works.

I would trust the process more than any particular teacher.

If your son passed the 11+ test with that little preparation, he is likely to do very well at grammar school.

If he is not doing very well at his current school in English, despite being a voracious reader and scoring high on the 11+ for natural ability, then the problem is probably the teacher.

So, relax about it, send him to the grammar school, and IF after a year or two there you aren’t happy, move him then. A lot of children move school at beginning of year 9 as this is the starting age for some private schools and that has a knock on effect on places elsewhere.

There's another thread on here by a mum appealing a Grammar School place for her daughter. The pass mark was 160, her daughter got 170 , but there are only enough places for children who scored down to 179 at that particular school.

yes, that gap of students who have passed but don't get a place is as small as possible.
In some areas as well, the pass mark is for the county but individual schools will only cream off those who get the top grades, so they don't get a place at that school but would get a place at another grammar (which is maybe not so popular) this is true for Kent.

It is exactly the same as how GCSE and A levels are marked. Top xx % get As next x% get Bs etc. The pass lines are not set in stone. Numbers sitting the exam and how hard it is etc mean that the numbers reaching a set number would vary too much from year to year. So they take top %.

Generally for grammar school appeals, they will only consider you if you do have a pass mark.

@MyBloodyBrother I have DS at a grammar school. We didn't do intensive tutoring, as I didn't want him to struggle at the school. He got in, with barely any prep work compared to others.
We were home educating pre secondary, so I can't comment with how well he was working (English was the one I was worried about).
Then there are children in his form, who talk about having had solid 2 or more years of tutoring to pass the exam. The ones from the local prep and those that have had intensive tutoring are the ones that are finding it a little bit of a challenge at the moment.
The point I'm making, is that if your child has done so well without the tutoring they definitely should have the natural ability to keep going.

DS school offers extra support, a lot of those struggling are taking extra English/maths/French etc lessons. The school will be supportive if they think your child needs to extra help.

Thank you all for the reassurance

@MyBloodyBrother honestly, he will be fine, take the place. so many children get in because they are hyper-tutored, so for him to pass with only “medium” level help, he will be more capable than some of the others, and will enjoy it hugely once he’s got used to it. the KS2 exams are just about how well they answer the questions and not true intellectual potential

There will be a few kids in the year (there always are) who really are below capability: they are the over tutored kids. they will struggle.

Be aware that pretty much every child finds grammar very tiring the first term because the lessons are so much wider scope and interesting with so many new subjects. this is totally normal and something they all adapt to by the end of the first few terms. So please don’t worry if he seems exhausted at times in y7, they all are by that first December, it doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be there!

I wouldn't be too worried no.

some kids are fairly middle-of-the-road in class, but take it all in and ace the exams, and do brilliantly in the end, and that's totally fine.

it's the opposite scenario that might be concerning. someone working at extra depth in class who falls apart in exams needs extra support but that's not where you are

@MyBloodyBrother our of interest which of the devon grammar schools has he got a place at. Dd had a similar level of 11 plus prep and got into Colyton. At last parents evening she had a mixed review some at GD, maths not quite hitting it, so we have been equally concerned. Her teacher seems fairly happy with her but not letting her drop before Sat's by giving her a little extra homework on the areas not hitting GD.

Yes, Colyton @Unsuredad123

You're dealing with a mechanical problem, not a lack of intellect.

Teacher sounds as if she knows what she's talking about.

DS passed his 11+ in 2019 and was assessed by teacher assessment (no SATs of course) in 2020 as GD for maths and reading and expected for writing. He’s now achieving 7-9s in all his teacher assessments and actually does best in writing! When he started at his grammar school in year 7 he had an additional English lesson a week for a term but then he got “signed off” and didn’t have to go anymore but he actually enjoyed the extra session as it was a small group and he’s quiet in class so it gave him chance to shine.

@MyBloodyBrother
@Goodbyestranger is knowledgable about this school. She might pick up on this thread.

If he passed with only that much tutoring, he will be absolutely fine and fly! (I’m a gs teacher, we can spot the heavily tutored ones a mile off)

This isn’t the case eg, in Reading super selectives where the pass mark is adjusted to ensure additional PP passes, so the pass mark of eg, 104, means that 400 girls pass the 11+ but only 128 places are available. It is nicer for ~40% to feel they have achieved a pass even though it is a long way off the mark high enough for entry (usually 112 upwards - standardised score).