Grammar School Appeal - Trafford Council

[SisterAnna]

Hi Everyone,

I was hoping for some direction prior to sending the appeal documentation and tackling the whole process.
We have applied to 4 schools with grammar school where my daughter passed being our 1st choice. Unfortunately were declined all 4 offers due to oversubscription criteria. We got a place in school in Manchester Council which was re-branded under new name following its closure in 2021 (school was inadequate in majority of categories). The situation is beyond desperate!!! 😩

I am preparing evidence to appeal to the grammar school based on the following and would appreciate MumsNet Panel members for any advice. It needs fine tuning and good presentation strategy but main points are below:

1. Daughter has passed the entrance exam with 370 marks, pass rate was 360 but due to such high amount of applications the cut off was actually 379 marks. However she demonstrated to be of grammar school standard as she passed above the required pass mark.

2. Mention the importance of religion to our family and moral and ethical alignment with the grammar school's ethos (school is of catholic faith).

3. From the young age DD had suspicion of development issues with possible mild form of autism and was under the Community Peadiatrician care between 2016-2017 when she was discharged. I am in possession of all medial letters stating this fact as well as supporting report from the childminder who looked after her for 2 years.
   The evidence is rather old and due to mild spectrum we found ways to manage her oversensitivity. She has not been tested since 2017. Is this still relevant as I don't have hard evidence she still suffers - which she does and will all her life.

4. Report from the school will be provided describing daughter's ability to learn and above the standard, her kind nature and attitude to work but also the issues she had to go through – even in year 5 she was still not coping with the noise and had to stay in Headteacher’s office to tackle the stress

5. Mention replacement school as inadequate in standard, same management board, all below the standard incl. SEND and not adequate for the child that is talented but also fragile – this will only be briefly described without trying to slam the school but more as a contra to what awaits DD if she goes to preferred school.

6. I wanted to submit a couple of pictures of art projects DD did at home – pastels and paints – she is making amazing progress and is very creative. The grammar school provides curriculum in arts and design and sports. Daughter excels in all those disciplines as well as learning.

7. Not sure if I should mention myself at all with FCCA and MBA degrees. The school ethos is to nurture young women to become strong and independent leaders. I would like to think that I can be a role model, that anything is possible if she works hard for it.

We are on waiting lists everywhere possible and rejected place in the replacement school (they still hold her place regardless).

Thank you all so much for taking time to read.

This isn't true. All the OP has to do is convince the panel that if her DD doesn't get the place, it will do her more harm than it would cause the school to have to accommodate an extra pupil.

Some arguments are stronger than others. Some are very unlikely to succeed. Additionally, the OP's appeal could be one of 50 that the panel hears for the same school, so all the arguments will be balanced against each other in the event that the panel thinks the school could admit some extra pupils, which would raise the bar for a successful appeal.

The OP has the right to appeal. The fact that her DD passed the exam means that it doesn't matter what score she got. She could win an appeal with a score of 370 and a child with a score of 378 could lose, depending on the strength of their arguments. There could be a child who missed out by 3 metres who loses their appeal, and a child who lives 3 miles away who wins. Waiting list orders make no difference in appeals, either.

@AvaCallanach you need a formal diagnosis to access the ASD resource centre at Barlow. I know that as a fact as know plenty there.

Yes you do. But the point being, it is an inclusive environment as it has chosen to host a resource provision.

Argh yes that is true @AvaCallanach
I thought you meant OP could access it. Good school

That doesn't necessarily follow. It could be argued that it is non-inclusive because it doesn't deal with those children within its core provision. (I know nothing about the school, but I can't imagine a panel being swayed by an argument that says 'there is a resourced provision but my child won't be allocated a place in it'.)

@DistrictCommissioner I have secured few placed on waiting lists, have resubmitted for Parrs Wood but will try CHS and other too. I feel lost completely but no time to waste, appealing in one place does not rule out waiting in the other.
Thank you all others for the comments as well, apologies for not responding individually, you certainly scared the sh* out of me so will push harder and with many more choices.
I was defo too optimistic with my initial approach. Good job I have two kids.. will get to do this again in few years time maybe wiser second time round 😩

I do know the school, and the system! So the schools that choose to host RPs in Mcr tend to be inclusive. The RP children are children who couldn't manage mainstream ordinarily (but need a mainstream level curriculum ), accessed only via EHCP.

I wasn't suggesting it for an appeal, just as an option for waiting list place.

So now you’re going to apply to Parrs Wood? Religion not so important then? People in Manchester bussing their children out of area to so called better schools is what has caused this ridiculous situation in the first place. You should send your child to your local secondary and trust her to do well. And yes. I did.

And this is exactly where I am aiming to be @Lougle :) Everyone has the right to the opinion but one can just argue them better than other.

I feel for those in Trafford watching Alty boys & Alty Girls coming in from 12 & 9 miles away. I personally think it's a farce as it's selection by those that can afford to tutor for 12-18months. I know people who spent £50 a week on tutors.
That may not be you OP but you get the drift. I have mates in Trafford who can't get in a local school. I have mates in Manchester whose DC get a very early bus to Trafford grammars as they are selective & free.
Loreto suffers the same situation sadly.

@SisterAnna it should be the strength of the prejudice that wins a case, rather than the ability to argue. I would hope that a panel would be able to fairly assess the strength of prejudice, even if the person arguing the case isn't very articulate. Unfortunately, panels can only look at evidence that is put before them though, so if a parent doesn't raise the arguments that might win, they can't give credit for it.

@JimmyGrimble it is your choice, as it is mine to act in the best interest of my child. Your comment is slightly out of order not knowing anything about me or my family.

It really is a terrible system & has huge impacts on kids in Trafford.

www.trafford.gov.uk/residents/schools/school-admissions/2023/2023-secondary-admission-outcomes.aspx

It looks like a lot of the schools offered over PAN to get all DC a place & a couple look like bulge classes too.
On that basis it feels very unfair that kids are being bussed in from 12 miles away for top schools

Quite. It’s not fair on anyone really is it? It creates inequality everywhere. For one child to ‘win’ it means another has to lose. It’s adversarial and wrong. OP I’m sorry you think I’m out of order by pointing out your hypocrisy. Just be honest though … you want to win, you don’t care how you do it and you’re looking for advice to help you do it.

@SisterAnna looking at the stats I'd suggest you just now focus on securing a place elsewhere. It's so easy to get sucked into the grammar school hype but the harsh reality is that not everyone gets in, even with a decent score

Trafford is really struggling for places ATM for kids who live in the Borough.

Friend is a yr6 teacher in Trafford and says that the last two or three years, loads of parents have been up in arms having failed to get their first choice. She spends a lot of time, trying to tactfully say 'theres not a cat in hell's chance your kid is getting a place at x' because they either aren't bright enough or live out of area. All to be ignored by a fair number of pushy parents who think they know better.

Part of the issue has been large numbers of Hong Kong Chinese targeting the borough for relocation for the schools in addition to the normal desire for middle class parents to get their kids in them.

The result has been that kids who live outside Trafford but in the past would have got it, have been the ones who have been particularly hard hit by the increase in demand as Trafford has no obligation to offer them school places. The normal pattern of places has changed significantly which has thrown a lot of parents.

If you live out of area, your appeal effectively will be competing against all the appeals from within the borough (I'm led to believe it's not insignificant in number as there are so many pushy parents). If Trafford simply don't have the spaces, then it's just not going to happen. They'll simply say it's not their responsibility and hand it over to Manchester to prove a 'suitable school'

Manchester have offered you a place as they are obliged to do.

I don't fancy your chances at all for that reason. I think your expectation in applying was wildly off the reality of too few spaces for too many applications. No matter what her specialist needs might be. It would be grossly unfair to offer your child a space over a child who lived within the area. The idea that her specialist needs can only be met in a grammar school in Trafford and not in a school in Manchester just isn't going to work.

You'd be better focusing efforts to get your daughter a space at a suitable school in Manchester, cos that's what you are going to get. There isn't a magic wand that's going to change this reality - all an appeal does is prolong the agony, unsettle your daughter and cause massive amount of stress for no good reason and with no chance of success.

I don't get why you are even thinking it tbh.

"If you live out of area, your appeal effectively will be competing against all the appeals from within the borough (I'm led to believe it's not insignificant in number as there are so many pushy parents)."

@RedToothBrush I understand your sentiment, but proximity to the school shouldn't really have any bearing on an appeal. Certainly I've seen several appeals fail when the parents focus on 'we live really close to the school so it would be great'.

The rest of your post is very realistic though, and the reality is that if the panel decides that the school can offer, say, 10 extra spaces, and there are 50 appeals, those 10 spaces will go to the people who have the most compelling grounds. 'My child is really clever and would do really well here' will be the bulk of appeal cases. To win, there will be to be genuinely much stronger grounds.

Manchester schools data shows very few spare places anywhere. Some years the numbers have been a lot lower. Stockport also has a very large number of children that didn't get any of their preferences.
Whilst an appeal isn't about distance I do also feel that it will be hard to win if so many Trafford parents are appealing too for all manner of reasons

https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/705/schooladmissions/6451/theedemandforrsecondaryschooll_places

The issue is that the 'extra' places are limited. All appeals are competing for any extra places that can be made available.

You have to have an exceptional case to get one. If you are out of area in addition to that, if it comes down to it being nothing to choose between several kids - apart from where they live - then the out of area kids will always lose.

My understanding is that for the last couple of years, with a shift in the pattern of applications, and there being a bigger demand and increased pressure on schools in Trafford the whole process of getting in and then appealling has increased.

Anyone who hasn't got a really good case and is borderline needs to be sensible in their choices. There's a lot to be said for playing it safer rather than aiming for the 'best' choice for these kids. It solves a lot of heartache.

My friend knows which kids have a realistic chance of getting into the grammars and which have no chance, but the parents know better... And it's my friend who has to deal with a huge amount of the fallout at school when the kids have built up expectations, and planning with friends who have applied to the same first choices and then their whole world comes crashing down as reality hits. She's having a nightmare ATM because so many parents just aren't being sensible about it, have applied for a bunch of schools their kid didn't have a realistic chance to get in and then have ended up with an allocation completely off their radar. Management expectation of school applications just isn't working with the parents. In her area it's being compounded by the fact that some of the less good kids who aren't grammar material have traditionally applied to a couple of schools in neighbouring counties. These have seen a massive improvement in reputation and that's driven demand on these schools too - so they are no longer getting in there as they are out of area and Trafford is therefore having to find spaces internally for a bunch of kids who were going outside.

The number of Hong Kong Chinese who have moved to Manchester, Trafford, Warrington and East Cheshire is huge - there are brokers pushing the area because of the schools. There are buyers who are snapping up properties for cash which has pushed up prices significantly in some places. It's really insane.

My son's primary (outstanding good area but under subscribed) has had a bunch of kids move there. Lovely lovely kids. But the aspirational parents are using it as a stop whilst they try to get a space at some of the good preps or grammars. They are openly admitting they are 'waiting for a space elsewhere'. And they are being tutored within an inch of their lives. It's a whole new level of competition that's opened up - seeing that the expected standard is 360 but kids only above 379 being accepted, in this context, does not surprise me in the slightest.

It's leading to more appeals from pushy parents with increasingly tenuous claims. The OP's sounds suspiciously like one of these that is desperately clutching at straws.

It's stressful and damaging to some of the kids. And it's coming from the parents to a huge degree rather than Trafford being 'unfair' in their allocation. Parents going for schools that are so oversubscribed with kids who are at best borderline is fueling it. Then dragging them through the appeals process because their fall back options arent prestigious enough is awful.

The parents aren't putting their kids wellbeing first. And Trafford ultimately know this - and with so many appeals like the OPs - the argument about damage to the kid for not getting their first choice, doesn't really stand up.

Fwiw the huge amount of pressure of more and more affluent / pushy parents failing to get their kids into the 'right' schools, should in theory help to drive up standards in others schools simply due to the process of gentrification going on.

The social issues of where that leaves families from less well off backgrounds and how that pushes them out of Trafford is another story in itself.

Great posts @RedToothBrush
The other element is the desperate parents now paying for private. I know people increasing work hours, putting house moves on hold & borrowing money off parents to pay for all this as they have got wrapped up in normal schools not being good enough

This is happening in areas with good primaries - they are sending kids to the local preps earlier because the behaviour / achievement has gone through the floor due to COVID and because they want to give their kids a better chance for the 11+ grammar school process.

I can name at least four or five kids where I am who are going down that route. Getting into the private schools is getting increasingly difficult even at primary level (hence a lot of Hong Kong Chinese being at our primary 'waiting for a better school' ATM). A number of kids I know who have gone down this route predate the Hong Kong influx too.

I agree @RedToothBrush I can think of 8 who did that off the top of my head. Manchester. Some went to Ambrose prep for that reason

Honestly, you would be better off pushing for a good Manchester school. Have you applied to William Hulme? Or Loretto in Chorlton?