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11+ information

34 replies

crazymama123 · 01/03/2023 09:44

Hi All

In an attempt to be helpful to those going through the tortuous london independent school 11+ process in the future, I thought it would be useful to pass on the information I’ve gleaned from for the schools we applied to. I’ve found the process pretty opaque, difficult to navigate and stressful so wanted to help those who are in a similar position in years to come.

This information isn't exhaustive, it’s just based on our experience of going through the 11+ (13+ for Westminster) in the 2022/2023 academic year.

Please feel free to add to, or correct, the information below if you have different intel. Also feel free to add information of your own experiences, or information for other schools if you think it would be helpful for others.

UCS
The exam consisted of two papers: English – reading comprehension (45 mins) and creative writing (30 mins), and Maths – (1 hour 15 mins) split into 3 sections, multiple choice, core maths and maths problems.

The exam this year was held on the 5th January. Apparently ~550 applicants and approximately 250 get taken through to interview for 55 places. We heard just after 4pm on 13th January about interviews, which were then held on 18th January. The interview was a 40 minute group lesson of 8 kids followed by a 15 min one-on-one interview. Parents had a 40 min Q&A session at the same time as the group lesson. The head of admissions said that they don’t look at CAT scores, even if they’ve been provided in the reference. Results on the 10th February at 12.20.

City
There are ~60 places at 11+ and ~40 for 13+. The Maths and English exam was held on the 2nd December, and then we heard late morning on the 8th December via email that DS had gotten through to the second round of written exams for verbal and non-verbal reasoning, which were then held on the 14th December (40 mins VR and 40 mins NVR). According to the email, there were ‘a record number of candidates applying this year’. Interviews were then held virtually the week of the 16th January. It was a pleasant 20 min interview where he was asked a mixture of standard interview questions and also some reasoning style questions.

If you apply for the 13+ then you do the ISEB pre-test and then if you do well enough then there is a written Maths and English exam plus an interview. The offer is conditional on them passing the common entrance in Mathematics, English, French and, if chosen as a subject in Third Form, Latin. No other subjects will be required and they expect that candidates will be able to achieve a high score (usually above 70%) in each paper. The interviewer has information on their academic performance and also their school reports in front of them when they do the interview. Results on the 10th February and we heard around 9.30am.

Westminster
120 places (70 for non under school kids). For the 13+ they do the ISEB at the end of November (ours was 22nd) and then we heard at close to 5pm on the 9th December about being invited back for further tests on the 14th January in Maths and English (40 mins each), and also at the same time DS was invited to an interview on the 26th January. For the interview he had to bring in two of his school work books from a choice of English, History, Geography, Science or RS and he was asked to talk about a particular topic that he has enjoyed or found challenging. In reality in the interview it was more of a general interview rather than talking too much about his school books. We heard the results on the 24th February at 4.30pm.

Highgate
750 applicants for 80 places (split roughly evenly between boys and girls). Exam was on the 5th December and consisted of a written Maths, English and a non-verbal reasoning paper (based on the GL papers), and we found out mid-afternoon on the 4th January about the interview, which was during the week of the 16th January and consisted of a tour of the school, a group interview (including a task) and two mock lessons (DT and classics). My DS said it didn't feel like an interview at all and was really fun. Results on the 10th February at 11.30.

Forest
140 places at 11+(roughly half boys and girls). Interview was on the 3rd December and was held online and lasted ~20-25 mins. The exam was on the 6th January and consisted of an English paper – reading and writing (1 hour and 10 mins) and a Maths paper (1 hour). There were nearly 500 children in my son’s sitting (he counted 24 rows of 20 kids) and I believe there was another sitting so ~1000 applicants.
We heard about an academic scholarship interview on the 11th January (earlier than the 13th that they’d told us). The scholarship interview consisted of an interview with the head of Maths, an English interview and an interview with the head of lower school and various other group tasks. We got the final results on the 16th February.

Happy to answer any questions that people have in the future about any of the processes.

OP posts:
SamPoodle123 · 01/03/2023 10:17

Thanks for posting. We are looking at St Pauls and for 11+ they have 30 places and for 13+ they have 170 (but I think 70 spots go to the juniors). Anyway, do you think more people apply for 13+ over 11+? My ds is at state school, so ideally we go for 11+, but I wonder if better chances for 13+

crazymama123 · 01/03/2023 14:18

I'm not sure about St Pauls to be honest. i imagine more pupils from state schools apply at 11+ and prep schools for the 13+. if you contact St Pauls then they may well be able to give you some advice on it.

OP posts:
AegeanBlue · 01/03/2023 14:28

Good summary OP, I’m sure lots of people will find it helpful for 2024 entry.

Which school did you accept in the end?

CrankyP · 01/03/2023 15:01

SamPoodle123 · 01/03/2023 10:17

Thanks for posting. We are looking at St Pauls and for 11+ they have 30 places and for 13+ they have 170 (but I think 70 spots go to the juniors). Anyway, do you think more people apply for 13+ over 11+? My ds is at state school, so ideally we go for 11+, but I wonder if better chances for 13+

I think that you have to look at who they expect to apply. 11plus applicants are more likely to be from the state sector than 13plus. So, if you’re applying from a state sector, it’s not so important where he is currently because they are not trusting them to teach him to a certain standard for the next two years. In addition, he won’t have been drilled in the ISEB assessments so he won’t be expected to have a certain level for that. Ditto for French and Latin. When my DS went through it, he said the 11plus maths papers were easy. That made it harder from him to stand out because he’s good at maths. He didn’t do 11plus for St Paul’s (he did 13+) but that was his experience in other 11 plus entry processes. But in summary, 11 plus is looking for raw ability, 13 plus is raw ability and achieving a standard in tests and a strong recommendation from a good prep school head master.

crazymama123 · 01/03/2023 19:47

AegeanBlue · 01/03/2023 14:28

Good summary OP, I’m sure lots of people will find it helpful for 2024 entry.

Which school did you accept in the end?

We ended up accepting Highgate. It was so close and they’re all amazing schools but ultimately we let our DS choose and he really wanted Highgate.

Hard to turn down Westminster but I don’t think it would have been quite the right school for him.

OP posts:
SamPoodle123 · 01/03/2023 20:08

CrankyP · 01/03/2023 15:01

I think that you have to look at who they expect to apply. 11plus applicants are more likely to be from the state sector than 13plus. So, if you’re applying from a state sector, it’s not so important where he is currently because they are not trusting them to teach him to a certain standard for the next two years. In addition, he won’t have been drilled in the ISEB assessments so he won’t be expected to have a certain level for that. Ditto for French and Latin. When my DS went through it, he said the 11plus maths papers were easy. That made it harder from him to stand out because he’s good at maths. He didn’t do 11plus for St Paul’s (he did 13+) but that was his experience in other 11 plus entry processes. But in summary, 11 plus is looking for raw ability, 13 plus is raw ability and achieving a standard in tests and a strong recommendation from a good prep school head master.

Except in my ds case, as he is in a special French Bilingual state primary, so is completely fluent in speaking French, reading and writing. But I don't think they test any of this during 11+? No latin unfortunately for him.

Why would it make it harder for your ds to stand out because he is good in maths?

CrankyP · 01/03/2023 21:10

SamPoodle123 · 01/03/2023 20:08

Except in my ds case, as he is in a special French Bilingual state primary, so is completely fluent in speaking French, reading and writing. But I don't think they test any of this during 11+? No latin unfortunately for him.

Why would it make it harder for your ds to stand out because he is good in maths?

If the maths test is easier, more people do well. It then comes down to creative writing, which is not his favourite.

Great for your DS that he has French. No, they don’t test it for 11 or 13+ entry but it would definitely add to his chances, all things being equal. These schools need to teach them French (I think Westminsters must take it for GCSE) and if he already knows it, brilliant. Easier for the school. I recall the Westminster application form asking if he speaks other languages.

AegeanBlue · 01/03/2023 22:06

@crazymama123 congratulations - you couldn’t really go wrong with those choices but Highgate sounds like great choice for your son.

roses2 · 10/05/2023 21:33

Thank you, super helpful! DS is at a state school and we really weren't sure whether we should be looking at 11+ or 13+. This post confirms 11+ as 13+ seems geared towards children who stay in private until this age.

Daydreamscometrue · 11/05/2023 19:54

My DS got in to SPS from a state primary at 11. That year two joined. Now it's rare for one offer. You have to be very good.

whathaveyoudonelately · 11/05/2023 21:19

Daydreamscometrue · 11/05/2023 19:54

My DS got in to SPS from a state primary at 11. That year two joined. Now it's rare for one offer. You have to be very good.

Do you mean 2 from your Primary school or 2 in total from any State school?

Daydreamscometrue · 11/05/2023 21:21

Sorry, two from our primary.

AC7001 · 12/05/2023 12:29

@SamPoodle123 Some of the replies to you are not that accurate. The math papers for SP (different ones for 11+ and 13+) are very difficult, the most difficult of all the boys and co-ed schools (don't know about the girls schools as mine is a boy). LU is next one down the line and the SP ones are far more difficult. Even if the boy misses a quarter of the questions, he still has a chance to get in. So math is the deciding factor. The comprehension is relatively easier. The 11+ writing is usually descriptive or story, while the 13+ is discursive. You are given choices.

AC7001 · 12/05/2023 12:33

@SamPoodle123 Also, the 11+ for SP (and Westminster alike) is very hard as the number of spaces are very few, only about 30 for each. It is the most difficult entry point for these schools. So ideally you should apply for 13+ which is much easier for prep school boys (compared to 11+), but then you have the dilemma of being in state school. I think very few state school boys apply for 13+ so not sure how it will play out. If you are keen, then maybe you should try to transfer to a prep school (that ends at year 8) at year 5 or year 6 and apply for 13+. In terms of odds, it is much better.

SamPoodle123 · 12/05/2023 13:11

AC7001 · 12/05/2023 12:33

@SamPoodle123 Also, the 11+ for SP (and Westminster alike) is very hard as the number of spaces are very few, only about 30 for each. It is the most difficult entry point for these schools. So ideally you should apply for 13+ which is much easier for prep school boys (compared to 11+), but then you have the dilemma of being in state school. I think very few state school boys apply for 13+ so not sure how it will play out. If you are keen, then maybe you should try to transfer to a prep school (that ends at year 8) at year 5 or year 6 and apply for 13+. In terms of odds, it is much better.

I decided we will take our chances and see if our ds gets a spot at 11+ I would not take him out of school and put him in a prep in the hopes to get him into a school. Either he has what it takes or not. I am aware it is a very small chance. I am not sure we will even apply to St Pauls. I need to view the school and it depends where my ds is academically end of year 5. Atm I think it is a possibility we will apply. He is naturally bright and learns things easily (GDS in everything w no help at home. I just tell him when to do his hw and put it in front of him. He gets on with it on his own and I do not look it over after). For spelling most of the time he never even looks at it and he gets 100% A couple times I decided to give him an on the spot quiz and he got them all right. He reads a lot, so I assume this helps his spelling. I know it is only 36 spots (confirmed by the school) for 11+ and on average 500 applicants so its a very small chance, but hey someone has to fill these spots, mine as well try. If the school is not the right fit for him, no loss. I am just hoping one of the schools we apply to will be the right fit and he gets into it.

AC7001 · 12/05/2023 13:51

@SamPoodle123 I think you make a very wise choice as there is no one school one must go to. Any differences are marginal. I was merely explaining the difference in the odds of 11+ vs 13+. There are indeed parents who think no schools other than these two will do and will do everything to get into these schools. For that matter, my boy goes to neither of the two.

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 13:53

crazymama123 · 01/03/2023 19:47

We ended up accepting Highgate. It was so close and they’re all amazing schools but ultimately we let our DS choose and he really wanted Highgate.

Hard to turn down Westminster but I don’t think it would have been quite the right school for him.

Nice example of ignoring the so call school "pecking orders"

SamPoodle123 · 12/05/2023 17:12

AC7001 · 12/05/2023 13:51

@SamPoodle123 I think you make a very wise choice as there is no one school one must go to. Any differences are marginal. I was merely explaining the difference in the odds of 11+ vs 13+. There are indeed parents who think no schools other than these two will do and will do everything to get into these schools. For that matter, my boy goes to neither of the two.

I am glad that I do not have a fixation on any school in particular. It must be difficult for those dc who have parents that only want them getting into specific highly academic schools. I just hope whatever school my ds gets into it is the right one and he will be happy, make great friends etc. I do wish we had some back up options close though, as the schools a reasonable distance are all hard to get into. Emanuel is the one supposed to be easiest and from what I read on the most recent 11+ forum it is no back up and difficult to get into as well (dd just did the 11+ and she got into Emanuel, but does not guarantee my ds will!).

CrankyP · 12/05/2023 21:19

A school with a 13+ only entry point like Westminster will require boys to stay on for two extra years, so most boys will be coming from preps. It doesn’t mean the tests for 11+ entry to the Westminster under prep is easier. TBH, I’m not sure where those boys come from. However, those with a main entry at 11 eg UCS, Latimer U and the 11 cohort entry for City are undoubtedly more from the State sector where maths standards are lower at that age. I’m just relaying that my DS found their maths tests easier. They don’t use the ISEB so it’s a one shot thing as well.

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 21:35

CrankyP · 12/05/2023 21:19

A school with a 13+ only entry point like Westminster will require boys to stay on for two extra years, so most boys will be coming from preps. It doesn’t mean the tests for 11+ entry to the Westminster under prep is easier. TBH, I’m not sure where those boys come from. However, those with a main entry at 11 eg UCS, Latimer U and the 11 cohort entry for City are undoubtedly more from the State sector where maths standards are lower at that age. I’m just relaying that my DS found their maths tests easier. They don’t use the ISEB so it’s a one shot thing as well.

The exam difficulty is not the same as difficulty of entering. Westminister 11+ candidates are competing against a significant portion of cohort that are well prepared for other 11+ state and private exams (stare or prep) at the same time, the level of competition is higher than 13+ entry I think.

FutureSchoolsSociety · 20/07/2023 08:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

roses2 · 20/07/2023 10:40

Super helpful post, thank you.

Can anyone help ref the exam format? Atom Learning is all computer based multiple choice but the sample papers from some of the school websites are paper.

Do the likes of Latymer, City, UCS use the paper format?

Only St Pauls mention a computer test on their website.

I am wondering why Atom Learning is so popular if the majority of the schools use the paper format.

PreplexJ · 20/07/2023 10:54

"I am wondering why Atom Learning is so popular if the majority of the schools use the paper format."

A lot of schools do online ISEB pretest first round follow up by paper open format exam second round. So you have to prepare both for multiple schools.

maggie3kids · 15/10/2023 14:10

Applying to primary schools with the intention of grammar secondary. Our main motivation for choosing an independent(private) primary school is that they do the 11+ exam. Apparently this is wrong because each grammar school has their own 11+ exam so whatever they do at primary doesn’t matter.

Can anybody shed some light on this please as it is going to impact us a lot more financially so I want to make sure private school will (help to) solidify entry into a grammar. Thank you!

tennissquare · 15/10/2023 14:36

@maggie3kids , this thread is about private schools in London.