Selective Education - a LONG RANT!

[seeker]

We live in an 11+ area. My dd passed by 2 marks and went to grammar school - her friend failed by 2 marks and went to the High school. I would have been happy enough if dd had gone to the high school - results are fine if you take into account that 25% of the more able children have been creamed off. Behaviour is OK - it'a a generally OK school. DD and her friend have been doing homework together on and off and the work looks comparable (friend is in the top sets) DD does two languages in year 7, friend does one - and dd may be working at a slightly faster pace. I know that dd is heading for 3 separate sciences and friend will do combined. And dd will start Latin next year. But apart from that I couldn't see a huge difference. I was surprised - I expected there to be a bigger difference in the work but pleased.

But yesterday, we spent the day with friend and her family for the first time since they started year 7. It turns out that the huge difference int he schools is in the non academic stuff. The grammar school has 3 choirs, two orchestras, a jazz band, a swing band, a wind ensemble and 3 rock groups. The high school has no extra curricular music at all. Dd has completed 3 DT projects since she started in September - friend is still on the first one. Grammar puts on three plays a year - high school does one. Grammar school puts teams forward for every schools sporting event in the county - high school football and basketball only. The list just went on - even to how much cooking they actually do in Food Tec.

Does anyone know why this is? Am I incredibly naive in assuming that both schools get the same amount of funding? And WHY does jumping through a ridiculous academic hoop one January day in year 6 mean that you get to do more cooking? I could understand if it meant you do more Maths.......!!!!!

But why is it unfair? Is it any more unfair than being a bright child whose parents can only afford to live in a crap area so you get to go to the sink school? IMO it is much fairer to select on ability than by postcode or bank balance.

However you sort out schools you have always got to make a decision at 11 ish. I knew my kids well enough to be able to make that decision for them at 11. The eldest 3 each went to a different school, because each had different needs. My SIL just sent both of hers to the nearest school (one did really well and the other didn't)

My Son's school is a ordinary comp although it takes 10% on aptitude for technology.It is one of the most improved schools in the country.
He is top set and does 2 languages (french and german) which he hates.
He has clubs to go to every lunch time. He is involved in chess, science, ecco clubs. There are also lots of sports and music clubs.
They have put on a year 7 music performance which was the entire year involved.
This week there was a production of Grease which DS was stage crew. They have also done a Golden Oldies concert and a Strictly Come Dancing competition which was mainly the teachers and 6th form.
DS has done cooking and now making a wooden box in DT.
We don't have grammar schools in our area, although Latymer is just about in traveling distance. DS would probably have scraped in if we had put the years of tutoring that most of the other parents put in, but I am more than happy with his new school. It gives me a lovely warm feeling when I have been there and DS is thriving.

You need some interesting hobbies for entrance to good universities but you can do that out of school, Duke of Edinburgh awards, out of school choirs, orchestras, chess or whatever.

May be more of the parents at the grammar school are the types to pay for music lessons and that's the reasons there's more music in the school.

I think it's unfair because my dd performed marginally better than other at some pretty obscure tests on a particular day in January she is getting so much better an "education" (I use the term as a catch-all) than her friend. She is an advantaged child and is getting even more advantage. I'm delighted with the opportunities she has, but I really don't sse why she gets to sing Vivaldi in a Cathedral in May just because she can do non verbal reasoning!

Some pupils can access those kind of things in the community, Xenia, but not all. It may be easy if you are reasonably sporty (ie can join a football team), or if your family go to church and therefore open doors to all sorts of opportunities. It is pretty hard for those whose parents are perhaps ill-equipped or unmotivated. Children need a helping hand.

It's easy to say they can do Duke of Edinburgh, but assuming they have heard of it, they would need to either access this through school or scouting/guiding. Sadly, I don't think the uniform organisations are really reaching out to those in the greatest need.

Seeker, I don't think your daughter is necessarily getting the advantages because she is at a grammar school - I think it is her particular school that is doing well.

I have taught in a grammar school and it was nothing like your daughter's. I can't really think of any extra-curricular activities at all. There was no production, no choir/orchestra, we didn't run a science club etc.

I now teach at a non-selective independent school in a region where there are lots of selective schools. One of the things that really struck me when I started at this school was how much everyone was involved in - music, drama, service, sports, academic etc. I think a school has a particular ethos/culture and new Year 7s just get caught up in this and perpetuate it. My sons' selective independent school, OTOH, has lots of published clubs, but for each of my suggestions as to what they get involved it, they tell me, "nobody does that".

It's really a factor of the individual school, regardless of their academic profile, I think. I also think that girls' schools are more 'active', compared to boys' or mixed. (this is not to put down boys, but I think they naturally occupy themselves by playing football at breaktime or using the computers).

I went to school in 11+ area, & failed the test, the difference in the schools you went to in my area if you passed or failed were really significant. It's for this reason I would move to a different county rather than subject my dd to selective education.

I agree that's it down to individual schools, not the selection issue.

My children go to a comprehensive school. They have over 70 clubs, ranging from the traditional sports and music clubs to 'ultimate frisbee', philosophy club, warhammer and cheerleading. There is a music concert every term, with the 2 choirs, orchestra, flute group, sax group and other groups taking part. There are plays several times a year, some by the drama club, some by the GCSE drama students, some just whole-school efforts (or those who want to from the whole school). Similarly, lots of dance productions.

There is a lot of cooking and other hands-on DT projects, lots of community activities - fundraising for different charities etc - and masses more.

This is in an area with no selection whatsoever, whether by ability or ability to pay crazy house prices. I think it really is up to the school itself, that is the wider school ethos, the commitment and enthusiasm of staff who organise activities, and the long-standing tradition there is for most (not all) pupils of actually getting involved and doing stuff.

Good post ecowarrior.
Seeker - I think your last post also sums up brilliantly - the 11 plus is not a great method of deciding what type of school to place a child in. It measures a fairly narrow range of skills in a 'snapshot' way.

Glucose it isn't like that now. My experience was that the Grammar school I went to was turned into a comprehensive the second year I was there. It went from being the best school in the city to crap in the space of a few years. For that reason I deliberately live in a county with selection and would fight tooth and nail to keep it.

(and I've had 2 at Grammar and one at High School, so I've been on both sides of it)

well to be honest evenhope, I would not be able to afford to live in the county I was schooled in as the houses are all owned by people who probably passed their 11+ !! It's a very dull place anyway.

Over the funding issue, are voluntary contributions from parents an issue here (that might explain why the grammar school might have more money). Is it also possible that some factor other than grammar school staus (is it, say, voluntary aided or a foundation school) that would give it more freedom? Xenia's point about music lessons being more common among the relatively affluent might affect music extra-curricular activities - there is a similar point over membership of sports clubs or teams outside school costing money.

Most of the country does not have grammar schools. I can't remember the % but they abolished them in my area as a child in about 1970.

I also agree that it's down to the individual schools.

We have a grammar and a high school and the high school has far more in the way of extra curricular activities, apart from music. I remember from going to the Open Evenings when DS2 was in Y6 that the high school staff generally appeared to try much harder for the kids there.

seeker, can I ask- which GS does your DD attend? Is it SWGS?

No - SLGSS!