Homework at highly academic schools

[1sttodie]

If you have a child at a highly-selective grammar or indie, please could you share how much homework they are expected to complete per day, in Year 7 and subsequent years? Obviously, some children will work faster than others but it'd be useful to have an idea. I'm also curious whether your child is able to have extra-curricular activities throughout the week?

My post is prompted by a thread I've just come across about pressure/homework at QE school (North London). It talks about intense homework, with mention of 2 to 3 hours a day in Year 7. Does this reflect expectations for most pupils at high-performing schools? I'm thinking that surely not, as this wouldn't leave significant time for sports, etc - and would cause undue stress? And doing homework while exhausted can't be productive.

My son (Year 6) has not applied for QE but for other highly selective schools in South London. However academically driven and capable he is, I am now wondering if I should be concerned about the weight of homework.

Thank you!

A school that generally admits top 5% centile rather than selective which is usually top 25%centile

DS's Essex grammar gave very little homework, much less than the amount warned about. At least, that I was aware of!

Both mine at different academic indies.

Both started with about an hour a day on the timetable - 2 subjects, but in reality it was often less.
Gradual increase through the school. Probably around 2hrs a day by Y10/11, but more flexibility over when it needed to be competed ie not usually due for the next day so could organise it to fit round whatever else needed doing. At this stage though, it was usually work that had to be done rather than working for the allocated time and stopping.

Most homework was marked, or served a useful purpose in terms of prep for next lesson, or planning an essay etc, or revision. So it didn't feel pointless.

Both DCs did a lot of extracurricular clubs/out of school hobbies and generally fitted everything in. The school also said that those children who had to time manage nearly always did better in the final exams.

It depends on the child and how seriously they take their homework and if they have perfectionist tendencies.
DD1 did loads of extracurricular and always did her homework in half the amount of time to most of her peers to a similar standard. Interestingly, when we cut back on extra curricular one year to give her a break, she procrastinated more and spent longer on homework.
DS at a superselective grammar did all his homework on the bus or train… but he loves maths so would spend hours revising that on websites to get full marks to stay at the top of the top maths set.
I really do not think you can generalise. Often the headteacher stipulates how much homework should be set as a guidance but some teachers will set more, others less, some will have higher expectations and expect their subject to dominate. Some kids choose GCSE options that are easier for them, others demand to do 13 GCSEs… So best to ask the specific schools what their current homework guidelines are but don’t expect them to always be followed. Also, is your child efficient and the type that finishes early in class but wrote double the amount compared to others? If yes, then in all likelihood, your child will finish their homework quickly too.

May I ask @Chewbecca do you have any experience of the grammar schools in Southend? My DD is expected to do very well in her GCSES and we have applied for Southend Girls and Westcliff Girls for 6th form. We particularly loved Southend when we visited for the open evening. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Apologies if you are in a different part of Essex.

Yes, they're both great schools so I would say go for it.

In my experience there is a different atmosphere at each, S being a little more relaxed with W being more pressured / competitive, which some girls thrive in but others find tough. Another big difference is that S typically educates local children whereas commuters attend W - it has better transport links. This changes the social / out of school norms a little.

There are small differences in outcomes but not enough to affect a choice on an individual basis, I think the school the child feels at home at is the one for them.

Thank you @Chewbecca . We were very impressed with both schools but loved the atmosphere at Southend. We were shown around by a 6th form entry which won DD over I think. He felt part of the school from the start and this was something DD was worried about.
Thank you for your help.

DD is year 7 at a non London super selective.

Not that much homework really. Some nights there's nothing to do. When there is it usually takes less than half an hour.

I'm assuming it'll ramp up a bit though.

Both of my kids are at academic indie selectives and they really don’t have that much to do. Way way less than I had 25 years ago. It is much more tailored these days and becuase of the use of computers it is much quicker. A lot of the maths is online questions rather than spending hours writing things out. They no longer have to write long essays in prep for coursework, it is all 500 worders. They no longer have to write out experiments after each science lesson but answer short questions online and get quickly in gcse style questions. Often they are told to just finish up what they were doing in class. Occasionally they have periods where they have a lot at once but it’s rare. The biggest probably I have is that my son often doesn’t know what he has to do as the teachers just say I’ll set it on teams and then don’t give a clear deadline. They all collectively are on a whatapp group where the class works out what they need to do together. I find this a bit weird but it works!

Friend's DD is at City Of London Girls and homework is very light in Year 7 and 8, whereas another friend's DD is drowning in homework at Queen's College.

DD at an Essex state girls grammar ranking in the top 20 schools. Home work is very little honestly, I'd been worried it would be horrendous. School are incredibly supportive pastoraly and extra curricular activity is both encouraged and celebrated.

Dd1 in Y8 at super-selective grammar (or maybe not by definition above as it has a large catchment).

She has a bit of homework a few nights a week - generally 2 and not more than an hour total. Sometimes it's just a work sheet (science, computing, geography) or learning vocab. She normally does about 2-3 hours at the weekend. These tend to be more essay subjects, English, History, RE are quite long, and the one she spends longest on is probably art! But I don't think her school is as hothousey as QE boys is perceived to be.

DS is Y8 at a very academic (but not top league super-selective) SW London indie.

In Y7 he got up to an hour a night but quite often it was less than that. Now in Y8 it is probably somewhere between 1 and 1.5 hours - couple of subjects per night on average. But all feels pretty manageable and not onerous for him, he certainly has plenty of time for other stuff.

Thanks so much, everyone. Super useful. Although there obviously are differences among the schools, it's reassuring to hear that 2+ hours a day in Y7/Y8 is far from the norm. My son is awaiting allocation outcome for Wilson's, Sutton Grammar and Wallington Grammar (South West London) - which I believe are the type of superselective schools referred to in this thread. Although, reading answers here, the correlation between how selective a school is and how much homework you get doesn't seem that strong. I suppose, to an extent, it's more about quality than quantity (as is our experience with 11+ prep). And I can see better now that not all pieces of homework will require great brain power, and that there should be variety and creativity (and even fun!) involved.

Personally I’d say if you’re expecting DS to be able to rush through 10 minutes of homework a night at any of these schools, you’re in for a shock. Part of the ethos of these schools is hard work and most parents buy into that.

My DC are at a selective Indy which has the below expectations:

Year 7: 1.5 hours per night, 2 hours weekend
Year 8: 2 hours per night, 3 hours weekend
Year 9: 2.5 hours per night, 5 hours weekend
Year 10: 3 hours per night, 6 hours weekend
Year 11: 3.5 hours per night, 8 hours weekend

The other thing I would say about Wallington County and Wilson’s (don’t know Sutton Grammar well) is that many of the parents will expect 2-43 hours of work a night from their DC even if the school doesn’t.

I agree there are some parents with expectations of extra work, but my DS is at Wilson's (see post from yesterday for his homework timetable) and he and many boys are doing so much extra-curricular that they would struggle to fit 2 hours a night in. I do find there are a lot of myths surrounding these schools.

”Many of the parents will expect 2-3 hours of work a night from their DC even if the school doesn’t.”

Yes, my DCs experienced a lot of this in London grammars too…. However, we told them from the start that this was not required and that they do not need to be the best in the tests and that a 9 is a 9 and an A star is an A star and you don’t need to get 100% and a 7/8 is OK and so is a A or B. So it is question of putting in effective work likely to yield the most output but still have a life/friends and extra curricular activities too.

In our grammars it tended to be children from certain cultures where the parents grew up studying this much so they expected the same from their own DC. If you live in an overpopulated country where getting into university requires 95% in your final tests, then that can be passed on. I have a really good friend who is Chinese who explained that she just grew up with the expectation to “sit” and study from age 5 every day for 2 hours and that is just expected so her child did that from an early age and it carried on all the way through (ramping up to 3-4 hours some nights). My DC were also always busy but more with music and sports so in some way, my expectation of extra curricular and balance could be seen as similar. It is still an expected time commitment. If I expect my child to walk the dog daily etc same applies because I am structuring their time according to my expectations.

Year 7: 1.5 hours per night, 2 hours weekend
Year 8: 2 hours per night, 3 hours weekend
Year 9: 2.5 hours per night, 5 hours weekend
Year 10: 3 hours per night, 6 hours weekend
Year 11: 3.5 hours per night, 8 hours weekend

@Stackss wow. That’s insane. My year 7 son does 1.5- 2 hours of football 3 times a week (with 20 min commute each way) plus piano lesson on top one night and doesn’t get home until 5 from school. If he had 1.5 hours of homework every night he wouldn’t go to bed! I would say so far he gets 5 hours in total a week and that includes learning for tests. My year 9 son even now only gets an absolute maximum of an hour-1.5 hours a night with a couple on weekends. But many nights neither has any as they finished it all in class.

@Drfosters

It is certainly intense but I wouldn’t agree it’s insane. The DC’s school are very clear that education and study need to be the priority (which I personally agree with). However, there is also opportunity for extra curricular activities.

What there isn’t time for is lazing around watching Netflix or playing Xbox.

Mine are both at selective London Independents - they didn't have much homework in Y7 and Y8 at all- (during lockdown they had none!) and Y9 and 10 totally manageable.

I think in Y7 at both schools it was something like 2x20 mins of pieces a day but sometimes they didn't even get that.

DD is in Y11 and is still not doing anything like '3.5 hours per night, 8 hours weekend'. She could possibly do a bit more than she is but is on top of it and heading for good results.

Both do various extra curricular as well.

Plenty of time for Netflix and Xbox!

Can I ask a couple of questions?

1. why you are so keen for your son to go to a highly selective grammar?

2. how will this improve his total wellbeing over going to a more local school?

3. how will this improve his life as an adult?

4. is it for the social kudos that YOU want him to go to one of these schools?

5. have you asked HIM which school he would REALLY like to go to?

6. have you considered the pressure you are putting your still very young son under by doing all the entrance exams?

7. have you a plan in place to support his mental and emotional wellbeing if he’s not selected?

8. have you looked at the pastoral care? This can be shocking in selective schools. The want top grades far more than your son might be capable of.

9. have you researched (as in really researched and not just seen what you want to see?

Bullying, anxiety and eating disorders at one of the local girls schools here is rife. Rates of school refusal, a mental health issue I’d never heard of before, is through the roof at my son’s school.

Basically, the pressures put on them and by themselves renders them unable to go to school or often leave the house. The mentality and physically shut down. I have first hand experience of this and it is heartbreaking.

My best friend’s son went through all this. He is now in Year 11. For their second son they removed the madness and he goes to the local comp and his holistically thriving.

First son achieved 93% for one of the “top” London grammars and didn’t get it. He did 4 other entrance exams.

He got a place at the 5th choice. By now he was down to 71% with nothing left in the tank. He was broken by the rejection of taking the entrance exams and repeatedly being told he’s a failure. He’s never regained his confidence.

He takes a 30 minute bus to school. He has no local friends do yo all intents is socially isolated. This puts a lot of pressure on my friend and his wife to fill this gap.

He refuses to apply for 6th form at his current school. Instead he is going to the local comp his brother attends.

When he applies for uni this will actually work in his favour. This school is one of the schools with an Oxbridge programme. Not that he is Oxbridge calibre despite having been to a selective grammar. Contemporaries who will have been at the comp from y7, are 🤷‍♀️

@Replyingnow - some kids love and really thrive in highly selective grammars. My eldest DD was certainly like this. September born girl, always streets ahead of the others in primary, self taught, reading lots, self taught all her timetables in Reception. She wanted to be amongst other hard working driven kids who grasp concepts quickly. She thrived there. Second DS same story - naturally really bright and always finished work so early at primary, sat around waiting for everyone else to finish or in reading corner for years. Loved grammar and loves competition. Thrives on keeping up with others who are better.
People just need to be honest with themselves as to what will actually suit their DC’s natural ability PLUS their temperament. If you don’t get in easily then don’t send them. Or if they are really clever but anxious and perfectionists too, then perhaps not send them either. However, there certainly are kids who love this kind of environment.

What is Oxbridge calibre? Some kids are highly academic and incredibly intelligent but Oxbridge is not right for them as due to the 8 week term and the small group adversarial tutorials, the fit doesn’t work and they are unhappy. Again, it is a high pressured, high octane environment? Is that what you mean? Or do you mean kids able to get into Oxbridge? Surely kids who thrive in high pressured environments with lots of homework, do well and still do lots of extra curricular are probably also happy at a place like Oxbridge? Because they can churn out the 2 essays a week, read through 4 books a week, still row and make it to the bar 3 nights a week?

I agree it’s worth thinking about what works for your dc rather than aiming for a certain school

Unhappiest I’ve seen dc2 is in low learning environment (which I did supplement to help him so did mitigate the overall mood), happiest in academic environment with challenges.

Another dc heading for good grades but happier in supportive environment where he’s towards top in mixed cohort

Luckily they got the right places for them