Late applications/appeal/11+ bucks

[beanhunter]

Hi. We have just moved to Buckinghamshire from a non 11+ area 100 miles away. Eldest due to go into year 7 in selt 2023 but will be assessed for round 1 on our old address. She has the option to sit a late 11+ but has had no prep and I have no idea whether she would even get a space if she passed as a late applicant.

we put the local comp as choice 1 but historically it’s always oversubscribed so I can’t see she will get a round 1 place based on our home address at the time of application and will therefore be offered a school 100 miles away. (I now see that prior council advised me wrongly to only put one bucks school and 3 for prior home local authority)

how do I best approach this after offers day? Do I appeal based on distance (but can I only do this in round 2 due to our address move timing?) - the local comp is 1.2 miles away and we are well within catchment. Next nearest state is 5 miles I think . Or do I just wait and hope she gets in off the waiting list? What about the 11+? If she gets over the magic mark can I appeal for a grammar on the same grounds? The system seems not very transparent and the council haven’t been the most helpful in telling me how to approach. Clearly she can’t go to a school 100 miles away.

I disagree that the advice from your prior council was wrong. Even if you had used all your preferences for Buckinghamshire schools, you still wouldn't have got a place (unless one of them was undersubscribed) and would have been allocated a school 100 miles away.

When you move you can apply through Buckinghamshire. You may not get a place at your preferred schools, but they will find a place for you somewhere.

Distance is irrelevant for appeals unless you can show that the distance has been measured incorrectly and you would have been offered a place if they'd got it right - clearly not the case here. If you want to appeal, you need to show that the disadvantage to your daughter from not being admitted outweighs any issues the school would face from having to cope with an additional pupil.

You can appeal as soon as offers are made. There is no point in waiting.

Regarding the 11+, if you want your daughter to get a place at a grammar school, she will need to take it.

Thank you for your reply. Yes I know she will need to sit the 11+ I just didn’t know if anyone had heard of late places being available in this circumstance.
In terms of appeal she clearly can’t go to the school at our old address so what grounds are there too appeal for our nearest - is there a distance cut off that is deemed unacceptable at secondary level? Sorry to ask but appeals are a new thing to me and I want to know how best to approach it. It sounds from speaking to both councils that on offers day she will be offered the school in Nottingham and not any school in bucks.

Would you be better off being assessed as a late application from your new address?
Then you can have a full list of Bucks schools, with maybe 3 grammar and 3 not, and do the 11+?
Then at least you'll automatically be on waiting lists etc?

I got in on a late application 20 years ago when we moved to Bucks. Henry Floyd in Aylesbury is historically the one with the widest catchment and will often take children from outside the area.
If your child is at the level to thrive in a grammar, the 11+ is nothing to worry about. Better to try and fail than not to try in fear of not being good enough.
Can I ask are your children baptised Catholic? If so there are really good Catholic non-grammar-school options as well.

(we moved in June and I had a place for September but this was twenty years ago)

You can't appeal until your application is unsuccessful. Kids can travel a distance, especially in grammar areas, so unless the journey is particularly difficult, or there are additional needs which make it so, distance alone is unlikely to be solid grounds. Go on wl for any schools which are preferable including the closest to new address for which you may be highly positioned once you move?

At secondary level, a journey of up to 75 minutes each is considered acceptable. However, since you have moved you need to apply to Buckinghamshire if you haven't already done so. It will be a late application, but you won't get a place at a Buckinghamshire school with your current application so that won't make any difference. You will then be offered a place at a school in Buckinghamshire.

If you try to appeal on the grounds that a school in Nottingham is too far away, the appeal panel will simply say that you need to apply to Buckinghamshire for a place. You will not win an appeal on that basis.

If, after applying to Buckinghamshire, you still want to appeal, the only way you will win is by identifying things that the appeal school has that are missing from the allocated school and are particularly relevant to your daughter.

Have you spoken to your new council about putting in a late application due to your move - which you can do between Jan to March ?

11+ - have you had a look at the website for the grammar school you want … my sons school has a very detailed section on the website .. so whichever Grammar you are interested in May do too . Re 11+ - kids do pass without tutoring , though most are tutored. If you have CAT scores from primary ( not all primaries do them ) over about 120 then it’s probably worth a go ( at least that’s what we were told .

Yes I have spoken to bucks and mh application has been moved to them. They said no option for late application due to move and won’t be considered until round 2 for a place in ‘any’ bucks school. So I am Not clear what you mean by apply to Buckinghamshire? We had to apply via Notts and then provide proof of address and then the application was handed over. Re the grammar the school basically said it was nothing to do with them abs the council will offer a sitting but will not give me any info of whether historically any late passers got places. I just wish it was more transparent as a system to understand how best to approach it as I find it incredibly confused (and like all parents just want the best for my child who has already been really unsettled by having to move school in year 6 due to our change in jobs and location).

Ok, so your application is with Buckinghamshire. Their timetable means they won't make you an offer on offer day but they will make an offer in the next round of offers. So at that stage you will be offered a school in Buckinghamshire.

I'm not sure why you want historical info as to whether late passers got places, but the answer is almost certainly yes.

try Not to worry. Long way to go till then and places will become available. Keep in constant contact with LEA and school so ur name is first remembered.
mine if my friends moved counties in June of the year her DS was due to start high school. Of course no places were available and there was a school opposite her house. She kept her cool and called constantly. They offered her a school that was a king bus journey away which she refused. On first day of new term the school contacted her and three places were available and she got one. Go in the school you want. Make your face known. Good luck

Keep in constant contact with LEA and school so ur name is first remembered.

Allocations have nothing to do with whether your name/face is known or remembered.

Legally waiting lists have to operate by the published admissions criteria. This is not optional, for any state school.

Spaces do frequently open on the first day or so of term as parents take private places/ move and neglect/forget to tell schools. It's nothing to do with "being known".

Hi: you can apply for your child to be a “late sitter” for the 11 plus and then see if she gets a passing mark (121 or above): if she does she’ll be considered in the second round of offers but some grammars are used to parents moving late into cachement to target a grammar school
place so check the nearest grammars to your new house and look at their admissions rules, as all schools are different. Take a bucks place in a non grammar in the meantime and see if your child enjoys it there: they may really like it!
What you have not yet mentioned, so may not know about, is that Bucks also has a 12 plus exam: there are no “extra” places for year 8 entry, but it does give your child an extra shot (effectively a “re sit” next year) so if they nearly get the 11 plus (and you don’t appeal) then you could put them in the Upper school for year 7 and then try to move them for year 8 to the grammar. Look on the Bucks website for details
of the 12 plus.

You might also find some help on the 11+ forum www.elevenplusexams.co.uk

You should ask this question on the Bucks section of the www.elevenplusexams.co.uk forums, which are particularly strong and well informed. You will probably need to say which town/area you have moved to (eg Aylesbury, High Wycombe, Chalfonts, etc), and I expect they will be able to advise you about which schools you might be able to get a place at and the best way of doing that.

Hi I work in a Bucks grammar and both my children attended / are attending one.

Where have you moved in Bucks? It’s a big county and things vary a lot by location!

you say you’ve applied to the local comp. I’m slightly confused - is this where you live now? Bucks has no comprehensive schools.

All transfer tests are organised by county so they will sort this out - it’s nothing to do with individual schools for yr 7 entry.

If your child qualifies then they will be in the pool of qualified children for round 2 allocations - spaces will then be allocated according to the individual schools admissions policies but in Bucks this is essentially cathchnent and then distance.

You can see in the secondary allocations page of the Bucks website what allocations were in round 2 etc in previous years (you can also see this for the upper schools).

Assuming your child qualifies it really boils down to which school and how close you are to the school.

Marlow - maybe by saying comp I’m using the wrong terms - I mean the non grammar option is what I’ve applied for.

I couldn’t see any second round allocations for the grammars. Last year we would have got a place at great marlow on distance in subsequent rounds (1.1 miles)

Hi so you’re looking at Borlase for grammar? My children are at / went there (now at Uni). Pm me if you have any questions.

I’ve just looked at the Bucks website and they used to have all the stats for. all the different allocation rounds but they seem to have removed it. I know in the last couple of years SWBGS and GMS have both made allocations in subsequent rounds to in catchment applicants. Are you Marlow itself (so less than 3 miles) as SWBGS hasn’t gone further then 3 miles since my youngest dc started in yr 7 (they are now yr 13). GMS goes further out but doesn’t usually accommodate all of catchment.

in subsequent rounds you will just be added into the pool of applicants so the closer you are to the school the better as it will be catchment distance from school which counts.

Bucks CC will sort out late transfer testing for you.

(SWBGS catchment doesn’t include Oxfordshire as stated above but does include some Berks - Bisham, Cookham and Pinkneys Green area of Maidenhead- maps are on school website. GMS I think is just Bucks).

We are in marlow bottom so yes well within 3 miles. 1.2 to GMS and 1.4 to swb I think.

You have a reasonable chance to get GMS and SWBGS (assuming qualified) in subsequent rounds. If they can’t offer you your preferences they will offer the closest school with a space - I’m guessing that would be Bourne End Academy for non grammar. WHS which you will also be catchment for in Marlow Bottom has a bigger cohort than SWBGS and generally offers to a much wider area.

Tiu can name grammars in yr CAF but unless you have a qualifying score then they will not offer.

Oh and stating the obvious but having a qualifying score is no guarantee of a grammar place it purely means that you are eligible for admission. Bucks CC views Upper Schools (the non grammars) as all ability schools (considering that Bucks is an opt out county which is 100% selective I’ve always found there’s a certain amount of cognitive dissonance to this statement but there you go!)

Yes. I will need her to sit it and then list swbgs and hw girls if she qualifies. Assuming we will end up pretty near the top of the waiting list for GMS and chance of getting in by sept I’m hoping would be high?

@KittyMcKitty
Sorry to barge in but do you know if the current sibling rule matters if we are out of catchment? Or does siblings trump it? Thank you.

It depends on the individual school and will be clearly stated in the admissions policy.

For SWBGS (unless this has changed v recently) it always went:
looked after students / pp students
catchment siblings
catchment by distance
ooc siblings
ooc by distance

in recent years the haven’t offered all of catchment in yr 7 so no ooc siblings would have been offered. When my dc who is currently in year 13 started year 7 I know a number of ooc siblings who didn’t get places. Other schools will have different policies but it would be unusual for ooc to be offered before catchment

The admission policies all detail procedures clearly.