Where is it easier to be a tomboy -- girls' school or mixed?

[chunkygranola]

Where would a shy, funny, quirky, possibly gay, possibly autistic, definitely gender non-conforming girl who doesn't ever want to wear a skirt or makeup, be happier? Good state mixed comp or good state single sex? We have the choice of either. London.

Your experiences, both your children and yourselves, very much welcomed. I went to private all girls, did well academically but was a bit bored. But looking back, better to be bored than bullied?

I work in a good mixed state, and have a tomboy dd in a different mixed state, I’d say lots of issues come from girls in terms of social things. My dd has some absolutely lovely friends and I’m so grateful for them, she’s done well and is reasonably happy (now in Y10), in my school we have a couple of girls who are quite socially isolated and they do struggle, but boys mostly leave them be, it’s other girls that cause drama.

Academically it is almost always boys that cause class disruption and in a couple of my dd classes it’s a real source of frustration, we have no single sex options locally, so completely mixed.

i would also look at the make up of your mixed sex school, I have a relative who sends kids to a mixed sex with a good girls school locally and it’s quite boy heavy as lots of parents send dd to the single sex and ds to the mixed.

My dd had a mix of male and female friends until end year 6 when some boys started to be hostile to her and by end year 7 she only socialised with girls unless it was a mixed organised activity.

I think it's more about the school than whether it's mixed or single sex. Do they have an LGBT club, good SEN provision, any SEN social clubs, a feminism club, anything that suggests it's a supportive atmosphere? Is the mixed school 50/50 or does there being a single sex nearby tilt it one way or the other as PP said?

What are the uniform rules? Loads round me ban make up anyway, so that ends up not being an issue.

You’ve described my daughter! She’s in year 6, diagnosed autistic and definitely gender non conforming. We had the exact same choice when choosing her secondary school recently. We went for the mixed school as our first choice, amount many other reasons I felt it would give her more of a chance when making new friends, she currently has good mix of friends that are girls and boys and I think this friendships with boys are slightly more straightforward and easier for her to navigate.

From my own experience, DD has some similar qualities to yours. She's gone to a selective mixed sex grammar. Quite conservative and old school and drawing kids from diverse backgrounds.
She's undeclared on her sexuality but her GNC appearance has meant boys in particular have assumed she's gay. The school have had issues around homophobia and misogyny but are more pro-active about this than they used to be.
There is little take up of gender ideology however and most of the kids laugh that off, so she hasn't been assumed to be trans or led down any paths in that area.
Overall I think that the school was the right place for her. If you are a bit outside of the strict teen imposed 'norms' (and they are very conformist) I would expect a few bumps in the road.

Thank you so much for all of these thoughts. It does seem like most people in a similar boat have gone for the mixed. Interesting.

The mixed DD could go to is partially selective and she would get a sibling place as DS is already there. They get great results (p8 0.66 for high prior achievers, which she is, and 0.61 overall for girls). It’s 58% boys, so not hugely skewed. EAL, SEN and FSM profile roughly the same for both schools.

DS is enjoying it but the stories he tells me about (inevitably the boys’) disruptive behaviour in class, and sometimes sexist bullying are hair-raising. I just don’t know how I would’ve coped with that at school. But I had a very sheltered life growing up in a rural all-girls private school.

The all-girls option does slightly less well, though still well - p8 is 0.4 for high prior achievers and 0.4 overall for girls. Which is interesting, as I thought generally girls did better academically in single sex provision.

It’s boys being gross that really worries me. I feel like girls have enough stress dealing with body changes and periods without boys being grim at them at the same time. But perhaps DS is witnessing more if this because he hangs out with the boys? Can girls just insulate themselves from this?

@PotatoSmile I think you’re right, I need to investigate SEN and LGBT inclusivity. The mixed has an LGBT club that DS has been to occasionally and sounds lovely, they play board games. I’m not sure the girls has. I wonder if in a weird way is it more outing to attend an LGBT club at a girls’ school?

We chose the girl's school for my DD. Who is quirky and autistic. She's not really bothered about gender expectations one way or the other. She was mistaken for a boy a lot at primary school but is very adamant she is a girl, she just wears what she wants. So far we've had no problems at the single sex. She loves being in an all girls environment, the low level disruption of boys and their tendency to try and take over really annoyed her in primary. She's not found her tribe at secondary yet, but she's also not unhappy.

Personally I'm glad we chose single sex for her, although it's early days and maybe when she hits the trickier teenage years I'll change my mind.

Not my dd but my friends pulled their gender non conforming gay dd from her all girl's school at 14 due to bullying. All the girls there seemed to have bought into the fake eyelashes, over groomed brows pouting lips and hair extensions look. The uniform has been since toughened (was 6 years ago) but bullying I'm told there is still bad if you don't fit one of the cliques. She did very well at state mixed school

It does depend on the individual school.
When we were considering secondary schools for DD (not a 'tomboy' but already showing leanings towards engineering) , we considered a variety. She was inclined to prefer single sex for various reasons. We rejected one (private) because we'd heard it had a problem with bullying and 'Queen bee' types. Otoh the girls' GS she went to was great for STEM subjects (though not at the expense of arts!) . There was a larger pool of 'geeky' girls,they could find their own tribes. There are well documented differences in the takeup of stem subjects by girls in single vs mixed schools... in the former, if there's a comp sci option or a robotics clubs, there's clearly no nonsensical notions that it's not really meant for girls.

I would say single sex but it depends on the school. In my experience gender is imposed on girls more in mixed sex environments - you can see this by the larger proportion of girls defying gender and taking what are considered male gendered subjects such a physics, and the opportunities given to them in computing where boys often dominate, in single sex schools.

I would avoid schools with LBGT clubs especially for a Tomboy; the T demands gendered stereotypes are pushed in order to exist. Everyone else must follow regressive gendered expectations in order that some may be different and be ‘nonbinary’’ (if sexist gender stereotypes were not a thing then there would be nothing to ‘trans’ from or to deny by being nonbinary. In reality everyone is nonbinary as none of us align ourselves purely with one set of gendered expectations). It should be expected that girls can wear/dress/have interests in anything they like and that doesn’t stop them being a girl.

Can’t stand the expression ‘Tomboy’

I moved from mixed to single sex around o-levels. Although I was never a very girlie girl, it was bliss to be out of the aggressive male attention

It was also good for me to see women take all the lead roles as staff and as students. Stood me in excellent stead in my working life.

No fair enough, just trying to write a grabby thread title!

I don't think it is about whether there is an LGBT club, but more the school approach to being GNC or whether GNC leads to being T. I wouldn't want a school that inadvertently encourages gay kids to believe they are trans.

As an addition to my post, there are no single sex schools where I live. That would have been DD's preference.
I went to both, changing school at 15 from mixed to single sex. There was less bullying at the single sex school (from other girls) and I had a friendship group of boys and girls. The all girls school was more cliquey and less mature in many ways, plus there was bullying and homophobia from some of the girls there. But it was also great fun, I made some very solid friendships and no limits put on girls in respects of lessons, expectations etc, and the lack of male gaze is actually a very good thing for teen girls.

My DD was very like your daughter. She wouldn't consider a single sex school and goes at a mixed comprehensive and has had a very positive experience. She has transitioned to being a boy (so is now my DS) - very controversial on MN I know but it has been the right thing for him and he is happy and accepted by his peers. School have been great and very supportive. He has a mixture of male and female friends - he has always had a good number of male friends which was a big reason for not wanting to go to a single sex school.