11+ or 13+ entry better?

[june23]

Hi All, hoping to get some light on this topic. DS is in Year 6 and we did grammar school tests for 11+(year 7). We have also given pre-tests for 13+ (yr 9) entry in independent school which we are keen to go ahead with. But looking at it, have been getting a feeling that we should have gone for 11+ as it looks like we will need to prepare again in Year 8 (13+). Seems like a never ending process 😪 . Can someone pls throw some light as what do parents usually go for? Do they choose for 11+ or 13+ entry? Some schools like Sevenoaks have test in Yr 7. And place like KGS, there's no another chance as my DS didn't get through in pre test this year.

It totally depends on the school and when their main intake is. If the majority start at 11 in Y7 then I personally would move then.

If there’s a good number joining at 13 (20+) then go with whether your son would enjoy staying at their current school for the extra two years and get a lot out of it.

Only a handful starting in Y9 then I would consider very carefully whether your son makes friendships easily and is confident in their abilities to e.g. break into well established sports teams.

My DC are at a prep that goes to 13 and prepares them for starting schools at that age by teaching to the Common Entrance curriculum. That curriculum gets the DC to the level they need to be for boys public schools but it is also a very good education. A significant minority of parents of girls keep them on at the prep for a number of reasons such as it being small and personal. A lot of parents didn’t go through the U.K. system and think 11 is too young to move to senior school. I’m convinced that if you have a prep with a class of 15-20 and it teaches to the appropriate level, why move them to a school where they will be one of 120-180 and you’ll get little or no attention or feedback? With all the pressures of the modern world, I prefer them in a cosier environment for a few extra years. I don’t think they will have trouble making friends at year 9. Who doesn’t change friends over the period of secondary school?

I had the similar feeling @CrankyP . Thanks both for helping with different view points!

I’m of the view it’s best to go at the age the schools starts, especially if the majority go then.

So, increasingly schools take their main entry at 11. 13+ Preps are keen to hang onto their yr7-8 and to send the kids at 13. Given they nearly all have to do the exams in yr6 now and then get a deferred offer, the fact they know where they are going, can mean to next 2 years just feels like ‘waiting’ especially if they know people who’ve gone to the senior school at 11.

It is true that if the majority start at 11, starting at 13 is harder socially. Friendship groups have been formed and most of the acclimatisation stuff will be focused in 11+ entry, but 13+ entry getting abit of support, but very much needing to fit in as a minority. It’s harder than most think. The other thing in lots of schools is that you just don’t know how many 13+ entrants there will be. As 11+ becomes more popular, often the 13+ entrants find they are a smaller group than expected. If they’d known that, they might have chosen differently.

It’s different if you’re talking about a school that takes a few at 11 and almost all at 13. However, that’s increasingly rare. And of course, if you’re interested in schools that only start at 13, then that’s the thing to do. If you’re choosing between schools which start at 11 and at 13, unless you’re going for traditional boarding public school, I’d go for 11+ entry. There a reason why most schools and the state system changes at 11. It’s a point where most kids really are ready for the next stage. And one final thing, with 13+ on the decline and quite rapidly, give it another 2 years u til your child is 13 and you could find it’s even smaller and schools are taking fewer still at that point.

Most countries have a middle school . For example the US has a middle school for 11-13 before kids move to senior high for four years. Australian kids start 6 years of secondary at 12-13. 11 might be the U.K. standard but it doesn’t make it right. Good preps are properly resourced to teach to an advanced level and can give kids a few more years before facing pressures like body shaming and social media etc. Maybe the U.K. system was designed for a bygone age when most people only did 4 years of secondary and then left for the workforce. It’s a luxury to keep your DC in a prep to 13 IMO.

Yes, I know what you mean about it being a luxury to stay in Prep to 13.

In lots of ways it’s great - it’s lovely to be a big fish in a small pond and to be the top of the school with leadership opportunities what you wouldn’t get if one of a large cohort of the youngest. It does also protect from some of the less unpleasant aspects of growing up and can keep you young longer. I agree with all that.

The thing is, those benefits need to be weighed against the downsides too. When you’re thinking about it and your child is 9 or 10, it’s easy to see it from the angle of the impact whilst 11-13 and not the possible impact from 13+. I think you have to seriously consider both.

Again, if the senior school is wholly or mostly 13+ entry, then staying at Prep seems a no-brainier. The question mark is over joining a mostly 11+ school at 13. This can be very hard. In some cases with 3 -year GCSEs kids have to choose their GCSE options before studying them in the senior school. Friendships are already formed and whilst of course it’s possible to ‘break-in’ often the 13+ kids feel like newbies all the way through. There’s also that thing of knowing others are at the senior school and a sense they might be surging ahead academically and socially whilst you’re still with the little ones in Prep. This might just be a perception rather than reality, but it can leave the yr 8s in Prep in particular really feeling they are just waiting to get on with the next phase….which has begun without them.

In the end, I think it’s all about the particular schools you’re looking at. Really press the Prep Head about how many stay and go. Look at changing trends in the last 10 years. Also press the Senior school Heads about no.s entering at 11 and 13. Definitely ask if you can be shown round by some students who entered at 13 and ask them what it was like and the systems in place for admitting at that age. It will work a lot better in some places than others. However with the trend being towards 11+, even in just a short period of time, the trend can become more pronounced and that’s worth considering.

No right answer though.

I am a foreigner but have children in UK private schools.

Honestly it depends on children and schools.

At some prep schools many children leave at the end of Year 6, so children staying till Year 8 often feels that they are just waiting or have bored and lonely school life with less friends. On the other hand at other prep schools most of children stay till Year 8 and the schools have great environments to educate pre-teenagers.

Some senior schools have separate setup for Year 7 and 8 children and provide smaller sized class, own building etc while pupils enjoy bunch of extracurricular there. Also, there are great senior schools to educate use of SNS, internet and mental health etc since the beginning of Year 7.

It is really helpful to visit various senior schools and ask questions to the staff, meet the pupils there, then discuss with your DC and consider their characters to decide the best options.

We opted 11+ for my DCs and are happy with our decision but I will echo there’s no right answer to this question.

I think it really depends on your situation.

Are you in a prep which teaches to 13? Or Will your DS be going to another secondary before trying again?

If you're not in a prep which teaches to 13 I don't think there is any utility in doing the 12/13+ (except as a second chance if you've missed the 11+).

What we've heard from schools which offer a serious 13+ route (i.e. a double digit % of their intake come in at 13+) is that if your school offers education up to 13 then they will be better there. There is the smaller pool or students so a more focused educational environment. But what is also often forgotten is that KS3 is not a major focus for secondaries (several teachers I have talked to including a family member who runs a department in a leading state agree with this). KS4 and KS5 is where all the focus is as that's a large part of what decides funding and interest in the school, so KS3 kids are often in a separate building and don't get the same level or resources. Whereas a prep that offers Y7 and Y8 will see them as the top end of the school, they're given more privileges and, even though it is still a prep environment and not a secondary environment, the classes are often so small that the teachers can't not focus on them.

I think there's a lot of class/privilege issues entrenched in the debate and it's very much an individual choice per child. But academically and self esteem wise I think it's fairly clear cut.

@GQ22 that is very helpful to hear. I have had similar feedback that the focus will be more if 13+ is available within the prep. And had a similar feeling that one-on-one attention might not be possible when the class is full and big as how I have see in open days. And my son needs a bit more attention and is not yet completely self dependent.