SW London Private & Grammar: applying for year 7 in 2023

[QuiteAJourney]

Following up from
www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4716365-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023-part-iii?page=40

Sharing the journey

sadly, I don’t think that is the case, it is very competitive at all levels in London. I know kids hoping for Emmanuel, Ibstock, Harrodian who prepped just as much as kids aiming for spgs, g&l etc

Thanks so much for this @readingcat - really helpful to get your insight given your experience.

@readingcat thanks for posting that. It makes more sense now. And I wish I could sit in on one of these interviews to see myself. It sounds very interesting and I would like to see how my dc is during the process.

It very much depends on the dc. I see parents starting to prep kids already at the age of 6!!! And on the other hand, some do not start until end of year 5 and are capable to pass the exams. My dd is one of those kids (who only started prep end of year 5), will she get offers in the end? I do not know until Feb 10th. But she passed the exams to get to interview stage for all schools she applied to - G&L, Putney, Emanuel (she applied to FHSS, but they interview all). Some kids do need to prep loads and some not so much. It very much depends on the dc. My dd goes to a state school, so was not prepped at school either. She just absorbs information well and has good memory.

To me the interviews are still very subjective way of assessing, unlike the written exam, which sets DC at equal footing (it that is at all possible). It depends on personality and performance, but also is very much dependent on luck!
Children behave differently - some are shy, some are more open. It also depends on the interviewer - most children will be much more open and engaged when the person sitting across is friendly and engaging themselves.

@readingcat

That is very interesting. Though I still wonder how much weight is put on the interview vs exam performance? Surely most kids sit somewhere in the middle interview-wise and aren’t the minority extremes of what you describe having encountered? And if so, what weight is the interview given vs exam performance?

Some families prep for 7+,8+,11+. I see some prep 7+ age 6 since older siblings doing 11+ prep and to have all siblings doing worksheets at different level at same time.
For music scholars the level of practice is on another level.

Yes, exactly what I wonder, how much weight is put on exam/interview performance? This is where it is also frustrating not knowing the scores for our dc!

Yes. From my understanding most schools try to set the dc at ease. The teachers are very friendly etc. But you are right, it does depend on luck on who your dc is interviewed by them. Some can seem more scary or friendly then others. So far from my experience, the teachers have all been lovely during the interview process. Last one is tomorrow, hopefully, that will also be a good experience.

Thanks for this very helpful reply,
The truth is I would be surprised! My numbers may be a bit off but I just find hard to believe that there are so many unpleasant children. I don’t have a big data set but I also don’t see this backed up in the children I know who have gone through this. It seems to be a real lottery for a lot of girls getting offers and rejections for no apparent reason.
Perhaps there are more duds than I thought and an experienced teacher can spot them but I just don’t believe it’s an appropriate way of selecting children.
It just seems like the same self indulgence that makes people think they can predict the stock market.
I will also add that a lot of my dds interviews have been carried out but a French teacher, art teacher, pe teacher etc. It seems almost scandalous that after all this work, having passed the exam she may be given a no by a 20 year old hockey teacher for not being a “good fit”

Yes, of course, totally depends on the child- just think a generalisation that schools like Emmanuel and ibstock require less prep is, generally, not the case anymore.

Exactly my worry. DD faced the same. And this is especially true when questions are not restricted to - tell me about yourself and your hobbies?

Yikes, very true. Did not realize they also have 20 year old sports teachers doing the interviews!!! I can understand if they are assessing for a sports scholarship....but for general interview? How would they know to pass someone or not?

All the interviews my DD had were with heads of departments or heads of year, etc. Definitely no 20 year old hockey teachers in sight!
I think it’s quite brutal but I also think it does add another dimension to a child that a written exam can’t gauge. I do wonder how much weighting they get though….

@readingcat "for example, who: don’t listen; talk to other kids while the teacher is setting out the task; don’t engage with the task; are rude to the teacher or others; are palpably bored or disinterested; lie; admit readily to not really wanting to come to the school etc. (This is a minority of applicants, but it is not unusual.)"

Yes these are minority applicantsbespecially for top range selective school in London. Keep in mind proportionally such minority number will be much smaller than the excess interview vs offer ratio the school doing right now.

It is a filtered out / red flag criteria for minority numbers, I would say the academic performance will the most important and the over interview number is for the schools to manage intake incase too many or too less by the summer...

I wouldn't worry too much about the pe teacher as an interviewer, a friend's daughter got a pe teacher at her SPGS interview a couple of years ago which convinced her they had no hope. But the daughter got an offer, apparently although no athlete she was just able to talk enthusiatically about it...

I had the "joy" of listening to my son's interviews on zoom during lockdown. Most were academic Qs but the others you could tell when he clicked and when he didn't eg. One where they asked him to describe a good lesson and he talked about a class on Shakespeare others where it all went wrong... but because of time they were mainly one way Qs. The only interview where they pressed with follow up "Why?", as you would at work, and so I felt really got his measure, was St Pauls because there it is 2 lots of 20 min interviews.

Exam performance is generally more heavily weighted. It's not an exact science, of course: schools will weigh up all forms of assessment (exams, group task, creative writing, reference, interviews etc.) and they will impact on one another, but exam performance is key. The additional layers of assessment are very useful and more significant if you are dealing with a lot of candidates who have performed similarly in the exam though.

@iRobot2022 "My numbers may be a bit off but I just find hard to believe that there are so many unpleasant children"

So-called "unpleasant" children, by which I guess you mean those whose behaviour is off during assessment, are in the minority, as I said - they are easy to rule out, but interviewing is a much more nuanced process than this and more usually involves assessing well-behaved children. Interviewers are not looking to weed out "duds", but to get a sense of what the child would be like in the classroom. This is much more complex than 'naughty v. nice', and involves an assessment of learning style, how kids develop ideas and interact with teachers and their peers. An experienced Art of PE teacher is just as capable of doing this as a teacher of traditionally academic subjects!

Well music scholar or sport scholar - doing more than 8 hours a week will subject to less criticism by MN standard it seems..

Among those parents I know (with Boys) there are broadly 3 group of target schools, Emaneul Ibstock etc in one, LU and Hampton etc another, and the top 3 (WU, SP, KCS). The extent of preparation differ drastically. For the first group, I really don't know anyone spending more than an hour a day (say roughly 7 hours on average a week), 10 hours upwards a week is common for those aiming at LU and Hampton. And god knows how much effort for the top 3.

We agree on the easy
rejections/acceptances I just don’t see this “nuance” point.
That you can sit down with 500 10 year olds who have all done well in the exam and sort them into 250 “good fit” and 250 “bad fit” based on a 10 minute chat with success meaningfully better than a coin flip just seems unrealistic.
if you think of the effort talent scouts spend searching for up and coming sports stars… watching 1000s of hours of replays, live games, interviews etc and they still struggle to be consistent.

But not 1-2 hours a week, no chance. 😂

Did they volunteer this information or did your dc ask? My dd said no one told her what department they were from...just their name.

We have had 5 interviews so far, in each one of them the teacher introduced himself / herself to my DD by name and role. In some cases (KGS and Emanuel) they also did so with the parents.

Good luck to everyone for the offers.

please can I ask how difficult/competitive entry is to St John’s and Epsom for DDs? Our daughter is very much average and we don’t want to push her too hard for competitive London schools.