Opinions please: To add Creative Subjects to the EBacc?

[RantAlert]

Just want to gauge general opinion on this.

I am an engineer. We are seeing more and more post-16 and post-18 come into apprenticeships with no practical skills and we are struggling to recruit.

I'm noticing from my own DC, they are doing nothing practical in school compared to what myself and DH did. Its frankly quite appalling the lack of practical skills and creative subjects my DC are doing, and how little curriculum time those subjects are given. They are just not valued, DT, electronics, engineering, Art, music and drama, reduced to 2 periods a week on rotation. Technology workshops don't exist in the schools any more - no woodwork, metalwork or electronics labs.

I’ve been asking a lot of questions of the apprentices, of many other people in the industry and not in the industry and the consensus is, the decline in practical skills and recruiting is because DT, Engineering, Electronics, Art (as well as other creative subjects) are all no longer seen as subjects which people should take at GCSE, and in any case, they haven’t got the time to take them. This is either because of the EBacc or because schools have stopped offering them (because of EBacc). In some cases, I know of some apprentices who are very good but were never given the chance to do the more practical subjects, they report having to have extra lessons of French or English or something academic because otherwise they wouldn’t pass them. I have heard of some potential apprentices not being able to join the company because the school pulled them off the DT or creative course they were on to focus on passing the EBacc subjects, therefore, they didn't get the all important DT/Engineering GCSE which would have meant they would be on the apprenticeship. THIS IS MENTAL!

I approach this from an engineering point of view, I know there are other subjects which are also suffering, but I’ve been thinking, what if I could set a petition up which asks for the government to add creative subjects to the EBacc? (Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the EBacc, but if we have to have it, can we actually make it broad and balanced like it was meant to be?)

By creative I mean:
• DT*
• Engineering
• Electronics
• Art
• Music
• Drama
• Other things which fit in this general category which I haven’t mentioned

*In the long term I would like to see this split out again into the different GCSEs it once was such as resistant materials, systems and control, textiles and others. From my point of view this worked better with more knowledge about an area rather than a very limited knowledge about everything.

I would see the final performance measure being something like:
• English Language^
• Maths
• Combined Science
• Language
• Humanity
• Creative subject (STEAM subject?)

STEAM = Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts and Maths

^Yes, just language. Most of the young people I know have no interest in literature and a lot of them failed it or it was their worst grade. It was a waste of their time. Literature should be an option.

That’s 7, its balanced, 3 essay-based subjects, 3 STEM based subjects and 1 which crosses both.
This leaves room for 1-3 option subjects, of which triple science should be an option rather than 'You're in set 1 so you have to take it even though you're not interested but someone in set 2 is but they can't'.
These options can include some of the EBacc subjects like literature, another humanity or another creative subject or something completely different.

By including creative subjects this will stop the long term decline of uptake. The government is calling out for STEM qualified people, but they created the mess we are in by devaluing creative subjects. Introducing creative subjects (STEAM) to the EBacc has the benefit of bringing more skills to the workplace (which are desperately needed) which helps the economy and reverses the devaluing of the subjects the government started. There is some evidence that creative subjects can enhance learning as it helps people to think outside of the box therefore improving grades in the academic subjects. The government keeps going on about a broad and balanced curriculum, but don't value creative subjects. Gove wanted all schools to offer an education like the private section, which, just happens to really value creative subjects.

So, I've had my little rant and said what I think should happen. I know if I'm going to petition the government I need to do some real research and provide evidence but would really like to gauge public opinion.

So the question: What are others opinions on this?

[Title edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

That all seems perfectly fair. In our house we had to not do music in order to fulfil the Ebacc requirements. My friends' daughter can't do drama because of the Same requirements. They are only able to choose one GCSE effectively as everything else is part of the Ebacc or chosen for them. I spoke to a woman at the weekend who taught D&T at secondary and she quit because the school closed up her workshop and sold off all the equipment. It's quite shocking really but it's exactly what the teachers warned about.

Well of course it is entirely possible to offer all these subjects, our school does. 2 different types of workshop tech, textiles, art, drama, music, food tech, and non-gcse options in construction, land studies, child development etc. Plus the normal range of 'academic' gcse's too of course. And they get 4 options with no compulsory choices. So the Ebacc stats aren't great, but the school think providing appropriate education for all is way more important. And they are over-subscribed so it isn't proving to be a problem.

I would 100% support you if you did get something together.

My DS school has ran DT and Arts into the ground. All the teachers have left and they didn’t include workshops in the new build. They no longer offer DT GCSE and the only Arts one they offer is Art. They can’t offer music any more because there was such a low uptake they got rid of teachers and the last one standing just left.

The school instead focussed on the EBacc subjects. All of which are compulsory if you are going to get a 4+, even if they might get 7/8/9 in everything but say History, they will make them do History. They get one more option after that. So only 8 GCSEs. Most cannot pick the creative type subjects, firstly because they don’t exist, but when they did exist, if they wanted to do triple science this took the option, or RE, or something else. If they had 2 options it might have been a different story. If creative subjects were part of EBacc it would have been a very different story.

This isn’t just our school. I looked at other schools on the area and all are only offering 8 GCSEs, 7 of which are compulsory EBacc subjects so the creative subjects are out.

I think what you are wanting to do is a good thing, because unlike the school @GrazingTapir mentions, not all of them (in fact, I’d go as far as saying the vast majority of them) have common sense in what makes a balanced education which benefits the child and just chase the league tables.

There was a Professor of Medicine (I think) a few years ago who complained that the decline of Textiles meant a lot of med students had massive issues with finger dexterity etc. when it came to stitches, surgery etc.

Found it! www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46019429

I don't disagree with you but I think your campaign should focus on making sure schools don't have any incentive to neglect these subjects, although maybe focusing on the Ebacc would be the only way to achieve it. I'm not sure that many people take much notice of it nowadays though? I've not noticed any university pages saying 'must have the Ebacc'. My dd2 did take two creative subjects out of only 3 options and didn't take a humanity, I don't think it's held her back. Saying that, the school has now changed it so that you have to choose a humanity, although you now get four options.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if there's going to be an Ebacc at all and it is important, then it should have a creative subject in as well as the others. But, what gets some children through school is the thought that they can drop their most hated subjects at GCSE and forcing everyone to do one of each could make many miserable.

EBacc isn't really a "thing" any more. Surely what's important is a balanced and sufficiently broad curriculum?

At my DC's school the option blocks are arranged so that you have to take at least 1 "creative" subject at GCSE/BTEC. If you don't take triple science you have to do at least 2. However, they don't offer Engineering or Electronics GCSE at all despite another wise very broad curriculum offering. I hadn't realised these were available subjects until I saw your post. Lack of teachers maybe? (Which is another issue)

@catsonahottinroof
what gets some children through school is the thought that they can drop their most hated subjects at GCSE and forcing everyone to do one of each could make many miserable.

I agree with this, but what about all the children who don’t like languages and/or humanities being “forced” to do languages and humanities? How is it any different to “forcing” children who don’t like creative subjects to do one?
Some children need creative subjects to get through school, just like some need humanities and/or languages. For some the most hated subjects are humanities and languages which they would love to drop, but they are “forced” to do them at the detriment of the creative subjects. Others are the opposite, they hate creative subjects, and are allowed to drop them, but this is considered fine.

I think what the OP is trying to do, and wanting to campaign for, is an equal playing field.

Whether attacking the EBacc in this way is the right thing to do, I don’t know. Possibly not.
Maybe going back to 5+A*-C but with structure to this, such as include English, maths, combined science and one of what is currently an EBacc subject, and having genuine choice for the rest might be the better option.
Or maybe there is an alternative out there. Regardless, these creative subjects need to be given more appreciation.

Just like the OP mentioned, the government are saying STEM and creative people are in demand. If so, why don’t they promote the subjects? The government were very verbal on how the EBacc left the most options open for the future. But does it? What about arts and music careers, they need the creative subjects. The OP has mentioned the apprenticeships, they need the DT/engineering subjects. Not every child is an academic. Why put a square peg in a round hole? I appreciate this is going more towards ‘get rid of the EBacc’ (which I would love to see) rather than the OPs original post, but if the government are really insisting on ‘broad and balanced’ until 16, adding creating subjects completes their ambition and solves a lot of problems along the way.

To randomly add, if we have to keep the EBacc, I would add RE to the humanities option.

@sheepdogdelight, in my area (and assuming in the OPs area as they have highlighted the problem with engineering), EBacc is the be all and end all. It’s all schools care about. It doesn’t matter what you like, your career ideals, or you’re potential. It’s all about EBacc and league tables. I have a feeling this is pattern replicated all over the country with the exception of a few areas or individual schools. This really is a problem which needs highlighted.

@WowPeopleAreJustWow no I agree with you completely, sorry I didn't explain myself very well. With dd2, she hated humanities, so was pleased to drop them for GCSE. For others, the same with languages. I don't think anyone should be forced to continue with subjects they don't like at GCSE level, above the minimum English, maths, science (even then exceptions should be made).
I agree about equal playing fields and I wonder if it's the pushy schools in middle class areas where they concentrate on the EBacc subjects?

Sorry, I misunderstood/misinterpreted. But I really do agree with what you said.

Possibly is a factor in middle class areas?

However, I’m seeing this in a deprived area, without giving away where we are, I live in a place which is considered among 10% most deprived in the country. The whole of this part of the county is. We’re talking very far north and historically hands on practical jobs after leaving school. So it’s not limited to middle classes.

From reading mumsnet posts, the more middle class schools do push it, but they also offer more options at GCSE (9/10 subjects) rather than the very restricting EBacc + 1 (8 subjects) pandemic we have around here.

From what I’ve seen/read, it’s the most deprived areas getting a raw deal out of this measure. Possibly just to please OFSTED and league tables. The middle offer more and the top don’t care.

Lots of schools do ask for that combination of core subjects plus humanity, language & creative. DD is doing triple science, geography, French & textiles which seems like a good balance. I was keen for her to do art or textiles.

I do see the issue but I'm not sure being more prescriptive is the answer.

I wonder if the problem is more that schools are only offering 8 GCSEs, of which 5 have to be English, English, maths and 2 science. That only leaves 3 slots to cover everything else including triple sci, humanities, languages, creative and DT. If schools were obliged to offer 9 then the more able could pick something creative or DT without having to lose one of their language, second humanity or 3rd science.

My DS and every single one of his friends do at least one of Art, "the Arts" (music, drama etc) and/or DT so personally we have not felt the constraint. It's also a no-brainer to us that it's good for them to have a more practical subject to break up their week. However that may well be the privilege of a middle class comp which doesn't restrict them to 8 subjects.

The current Textiles GSCE seems to do too much with high fashion and art textiles. Instead, students should do fashion sketching, pattern making, British costume history, and practical lessons in dressmaking, tailoring, quilting, embroidery, needlepoint, knitting, and crochet. They could build a portfolio of finished pieces and a mixture of full and 1/3 scale garments. As a long time hobby dressmaker, quilter, and embroiderer, I’d rather young people learned new skills they could enjoy all their life and not specialize in fashion design first. What good is it to be a designer who can’t use a sewing machine?

It's not just EBAC though, it is progress 8 as well.

Maths and English are double weighted. But for English it is only double weighted if you take literature as well as language, so the school has to have kids take both even if they know the child will fail lit.

It's crap, you can have a child who is gifted at languages or art or well anything but who has to do the EBAC subjects because it is only after the two English, maths, three more EBAC subjects that their subject counts.

www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/curricula-and-exams/progress-8-attainment-8

In an ideal world that gifted student should be able to take say 2 or 3 languages, or art + photography + a BTEC craft subject.

I hated school but at least when I took my options I had a free choice after maths and English, yes I had to study lit but I ended up taking the language O Level early and dropping lit.

I was supposed to take French but fortunately for me and 2 others we were in the CSE set and we had an art teacher who was willing to work with us outside the normal class hours.

With progress 8 I would have had to take the literature exam, I would have had to take French, double or triple science and then probably computer science. As it was my art classes were a sanctuary. Having a choice of art or computing I think I would have wanted to do art but my school would have pushed the computing.

OP I don't think you will change the EBAC or progress 8 but maybe a one year BTEC type qualification in practical subjects between GCSE and apprenticeships, sort of a foundation year like unis have?

I think it's your premise that is wrong. You said "Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the EBacc, but if we have to have it, can we actually make it broad and balanced like it was meant to be?" I am not sure that we do have to have the EBacc?

It's quite new, its requirements seem to still be changing a lot and there still seems to be some debate as to whether it is actually achieving what it set out to, which itself isn't terribly clear. Kinda predictably with these sorts of interventions it has had some perverse effects like the one you describe. (I don't know anything about Progress 8.)

I personally think that it is reasonable to require students to leave school with GCSE maths and English Language at a decent level, or ask that they continue to study them. I naturally think they should study science as well, but I am a scientist and very conscious that that colours what I think about its importance. Beyond that, schools know how to put together balanced curricula for their GCSE students, and students do have a fair idea what they are good at and enjoy.

Maybe there should be some form of 'life skills' classes that runs alongside GCSEs? I'm thinking something between Girl Guide badges and BTEC certificates.

A sort of tick off of skills you have, so planning, shopping for an cooking a meal - earn a badge. Learn to change a fuse in a plug (I would have said wire a plug but I'm not sure that's relevant anymore). Open a bank account. Learn to take up a hem and sew on a button. Basic decorating, DIY etc.

I went to a girls' school that just didn't teach 'boy subjects' I would have loved a go at metalwork and woodwork.

Some schools do have this.

DD's secondary have their own version of the EBACC which is:
English x 2
Maths
Science - double or triple
MFL or Latin
Humanity (Geog or Hist)
Visual or Performing Art

Core are the English, Maths, Double Science, MFL/Latin, Humanity and then they can pick 2 options one of which must be the Art. 9 subjects in total.

Arts subjects on offer are - Design Tech, Fine Art, Graphics, Textiles, Photography, Creative Media Production (BTEC), Music and Drama

In addition they all do one lesson a week of InfoTech, RE and Citizenship.

In Y7 and Y8 they have a full curriculum with 2 lessons a week each of Art, Music, Drama and DT. DT is on rotation with a term each of different types (woodwork, textiles, food tech, engineering etc so they can try everything). Options picked at end of Y8 and 3 year GCSE pathway.

God no- neither of moine are in the least bit creative or Artsy. It would be torture for them. The only thing I would add is that RS should be included as a humanity. If doesn't matter too much for us as DD is taking Geopgraphy too but really RS is just as much on a humanity without the recognition.

The EBacc doesn't really exist. It is just a name for a group of individual GCSEs. We need a real integrated EBacc like the IB Middle Years Programme. This involves a totally different approach to teaching, learning and assessment. It is academic, so not a soft option, but the kids do more project work. Creative subjects, PE and health education are a must. Volunteering in the community is included in the curriculum. They have a list of learner profiles like being a thinker, a risk-taker and being caring that all pupils are encouraged to develop. At the end of Y11 they only take 5 exams, which are computer based and interactive. The kids come out of their exams saying they were fun!

Basically the IB for 11-16 year olds looks brilliant. Our kids will be competing on the international jobs market against kids who did this programme, but unlike them, ours will have been forced through a GCSE sausage machine. Some will take 33 hours of handwritten exams at the end of Y11. They will have crammed information that they will promptly forget and they have had no time to develop the skills that employers look for. I looked for an MYP school for my kids, but the schools that do the IB only do diploma for 16 to 18 year olds. I just wish our government would get its act together and make a real EBacc and ditch GCSEs completely.

For all of you saying the EBacc isn’t a thing in schools any more, please do take a look at what our local schools are offering and it might demonstrate that Ebacc is a big thing and reducing numbers of options to only 1 is a big thing. So the OP has a point about certain subjects being driven out. There’s no opportunity to take them.

I’ve looked at every local school (we have 8 in about 15 miles so please no one say that I’ve been picky about what I’ve chosen, because there is no avoiding this Ebacc thing around here, there were 2 schools which didn’t have information online I could screenshot)

The five I’ve attached are the ‘better’ schools. I sent my child to none of them because of the Ebacc thing.

My child goes to the only school in the area not enforcing the Ebacc because I wanted them to have choice as to whether they did the Ebacc subjects or followed their own desires. It just happens to be the ‘worst’ school apparently. Hmmmm, I think there’s some politics involved there. (Will attach separately as can only upload 5)

So much for schools don’t care…..

OP really has a point here. Not sure attaching more to Ebacc is good. Maybe just get rid of it completely?

The school that doesn’t care about Ebacc. Still limits subjects to only 8 though. But does allow all the creative type subjects to be taken.

I’ve tried to anonymise as much as possible but I’m afraid for some of them it wasn’t 100% possible

@DoingMyHeadInAgain all of the schools you've listed may be keen on the Ebacc (although at one says "encouraged" which is not the same as mandatory and one mentions a partial pathway) but they all have at least one free choice option which could be used for the creative subjects that OP is mourning the lack of.

It seems to be your are arguing something different to OP - that schools should allow for greater flexibility in GCSE choices.
Have you looked on the individual school sites to see how many students at those schools actually ended up satisfying the EBacc conditions? That would be more more meaningful than quoting from websites (which are not always correct or up to date and may change!)

Ok I’ll admit, I saw a chance for Ebacc bashing and jumped straight onto it. Sorry. Although I still it’s relevant to the argument in why we should be adding more to the Ebacc.

To answer the OP properly. I do not agree with the Ebacc at all. Too much is forced/dictated and no room for manoeuvre. Adding creative subjects will not improve it. I understand what you are wanting and why, I just don’t think this is the right solution. I do think there should be more done to promote these subjects as they are important. As you can see they are offered at the schools where I am, but if someone wanted to do one of those subjects and another subject they probably wouldn’t be able to. At least they CAN choose a creative subjects if they want to. And the CAN choose NOT to do one of they don’t want to. The same can’t be said of history/geography/languages. These are forced upon they kids.

But there must be a better way of doing things. I agree as PP have said, English, maths and science are necessary. But, whether someone does the full Ebacc isn’t necessary. Some need/want to do those subjects, others it’s a waste of time and string of creative subjects would be better. I mean, see what I’ve uncovered about the schools I’ve been mentioning. It’s doesn’t seem to be doing any good for the results really. So who is it benefitting? Adding a creative subject to that would just mean more kids fail more GCSEs that they didn’t want to sit in the first place.
I agree with a PP, a bit of structure sound English, maths and science and the rest is whatever you want it to be.

I hear wales is doing some consultation on their GCSEs at the minute, updating them for this century rather than the last. Maybe you should focus efforts on getting something like that from the government where people can have an input on what they want on the curriculum, how the assessment should work, how performance measures should look, and the content of the subjects.
www.qualificationswales.org/english/news/have-your-say-on-new-made-for-wales-gcses/

Or maybe you should get involved with this, they seem to have the same ideals as you
baccforthefuture.com

@sheepdogdelight

Took me a while as I couldn’t figure out what the data was telling me for ages however, I’ve finally figured it out. Unfortunately they don’t allow you to do a comparison table any more so I’ve made my own (attached).

The results are all from here
www.gov.uk/school-performance-tables

There’s a lot of entries but the % actually achieving it is quite low in comparison. Seems like a lot of failed GCSEs. So it’s either really poor teaching or a waste of the kids’ time if you ask me.

Looking back at the GCSE's I took (31 years ago) from an adult perspective and knowing more about what I enjoy and would have liked to have maybe gone on to have a career with basically half of what I took was a waste of mine and my teachers time.
Science - I simply wasn't interested. At all.
French - I wasn't very good.
RE - I didn't understand half of what we were learning. I had to pick a Humanities subject and I chose this because I liked the teacher 🙄
PE - (didn't get a GCSE) but mostly didn't turn up. 50% of my year group didn't turn up.
I wish I had been able to have a more creative education. I took textiles but I would have loved to have done more are

Oh...half my post is missing.
As I was saying - I would have liked to have had more of a creative education. I took textiles but would have loved to be able to do more art subjects (you could only do one). I would have loved to have done design and technology especially practical hands on stuff like woodwork/metalwork. Tbh I don't know why I didn't or couldn't do those.
I wish we had proper art and technical schools from 14 plus.
The UTC's are slowly filling the gap but they are more tech than arts.
Basically English, Maths and a whole load of creative and hands on subjects and I would have loved school.