Grammar vs Independent

[Happydaysandhappysmiles]

Would you choose a grammar 20 mins away or independent an hour away. Both are selective. Grammar is single sex, indie could be Co Ed or single sex. Independent in this case is not big public school type. Trying to work out whether it is worth the cash (which would be substantial, more than one child). I know it is hard without saying which schools etc but just interested in headline thoughts. Also looking ahead to university bias (or not). Thanks

The journey would make the Grammar the choice- no contest!

Grammar. Hands down. For many reasons. And my kids are at an independent school.

University bias doesn't exist. Contextual offers exist where students from certain deprived postcodes from families on benefits at schools which send hardly anyone into higher education, yes, those kids predicted 3A's are going to be judged as higher achievers than a kid predicted 3A's from a grammar or Indie with middle class parents in a middle class area. So it has no bearing on your decision, unless your third choice is to move into a council house in a deprived area and send them to underperforming school which sends hardly anyone to Uni.

Your decision is simple, pay over 100 grand or pay nowt. Some grammars have superior A level results than some private day schools, you need to judge the school on RESULTS , AND if you are willing to invest over 100 grand into your DC's education, 200K + if you have more than one.

Its hardly a dilemma, if the grammar has better results, its a no brainer, if they have the same, then it comes down to cash, if the Indie has better results, then its the cash again- can you really afford it, have you got good provision to pay for it- i.e if you're paying from salary, you have serious wealth in savings, investments, if the answer to the simple question, if you never work again, could you afford to keep them at school, is yes, go for it. If its a no, you have to reconcile that before sending them private- its a cash drainer and very hard to get out once you're in. ( My kid have been in private school since 3+) It has cost us a fortune over the years and with fees, the only way is up,

I wouldn't worry about university bias. All things being equal academically between the schools, I would choose the grammar. The fact its closer means I'd choose it hands down. You can provide the co-curricular provision yourself much more cheaply and the shorter commute will make a material difference in you child's quality of life.

There's no way I'd pick a school an hour away and commit my child to that commute for 5/7 years.

I'd pick any school that was 20 minutes away over one that was an hour away (is that on a good day, by any chance??). Actually I wouldn't be considering a school an hour away unless it really offered something not available anywhere else (my friend has just sent her child to a school an hour away because it's the closest Welsh medium school, for example).

There won't be any difference in "university bias" between a grammar and private school. Your child would need to go to a non-selective state with not much history of children going to university to get a contextual offer based on their school.

Have you visited the schools? Does the independent offer something you value that the grammar doesn’t (e.g. extra curricular activities). You haven’t actually mentioned any positives to the independent in your post so I think that gives you the answer.

Thanks everyone really appreciate it @Radiatorvalves any explicit reasons (PM if you would prefer). As yet we haven't seen either but I know both independent options (albeit as a pupil at one and using the facilities of the other). The academic results are better at indies so top 100 and just outside (A level A*-B 86.2 - 78.9 %) versus 58.5-67.4 % at the grammars and in the 150-200 top schools.

If you can get in I would always choose grammar over independent.

A level results aren't really important if you're looking for a secondary school. Many children move at sixth form.

I'd suggest comparing results is irrelevant as well unless you are absolutely sure you are comparing apples with apples. if the independent selects the top 10% of the ability range and the grammar the top 25%, then it's not really that impressive for it to get better results.

We chose independent over grammar. Our DS benefits from co-ed and the independent is stronger pastorally, which he needs. It’s a bit kid dependent really, though also depends how much of a stretch it is too - it’s never worth making life difficult when you have two good options.

Usually in grammar counties, most people opt for the grammar unless they can’t get in. The independents don’t get to skim off the brightest as they do in areas where grammars aren’t available so those results surprise me and make me wonder how good an education the grammar is providing.

Grammar, unless it's one of the shit ones in Kent that isn't close to subscription levels...

The independent is an hour away so might very well not be in the grammar county! (Particularly if the grammar is 20 minutes in the opposite direction to OP). An hour from us (in almost any direction) would take you over at least 1 and mostly 2 or even more county borders.

I note in either case that OP is assuming her DC will pass entrance exams. Always good to have a Plan B!

Hi, nothing earth shattering from me, but…

1. That’s a heck of a commute. How will they meet friends after school (lots of taxiing)
2. academically most grammars are up there if your child is bright - perhaps more so than a mid range independent. My DSs did not get into grammar, but did get into a v academic independent, where they are thriving. Stellar gcses and hopefully A levels.
3. thinking about university, you may stand a bit more of a chance from a grammar. Not necessarily, but DS school has seen Oxbridge success rate fall by 50% in recent years.
4. and that’s a heck of a lot of money…

My children are at an independent and I’d choose your grammer!

My children went to an independent singe sex school. If there had been a grammar option locally, they would have gone there, especially if it had been closer!

Choose the grammar. I had a long car journey to an independent school and it was no fun. If extra curricular are poor, you can afford sports/drama/ music/whatever.

My children are in state and I would pick the grammar because of the distance. I didn't consider the grammar 1+ hour away for this reason.

Grammar and independent are in different counties, no grammars in the indie county hence why I went to it. How do you know how much the independent is creaming off academically? Yes I am assuming they will get in for the sake of this post but don't worry we will have a plan B. The other aspect that slightly bothers me about grammars is apparently they are very keen on 'self learning' whereas in my day the indies did quite a bit of spoon feeding. Appreciate that is not necessarily ideal but I'm not sure how you know what bucket your child will be in, or do you know by year 5? I worry with the grammar results that they concentrate a lot on the C grade people to try and push them up maybe? Have to say I thought they were better than those results suggest. Pretty sure not super selective like Tiffin for example.

Indies are 75.29-80% for GCSE A and A* and 52-55% for the grammars which seems pretty bad by comparison?

What data are you looking at? I don't believe last year's A Level data (which is the results you quoted) is available for this year yet. So you'll be looking at 2019 data, which is 3 years out of date.

The concept of pushing up C candidates at A Level doesn't really exist - the school will just want everyone to get as high a grade as possible.
And a grammar school is unlikely to have many (any?) students at the 3/4 borderline for GCSE.

I'm not sure why you think spoon feeding is good thing. It might help them get better GCSE/A Levels but they will struggle when/if they to university.

Are you in Northern Ireland as A/A* hasn't been used at GCSE in England for quite a while?

You can't tell whether the results are good or not without understanding the intake. As I said upthread - if the grammar takes students in the top 25% and the private school selects the top 10%, then it's not that surprising if the private school results are markedly better.

No but could easily be looking at old data, have looked at several league tables but I thought I was looking at 2022 data. How would you know whether the indie was taking the top 10%, ask them? One grammar had 63 and 18 4's and 3's in 2022. If I use their data from 9-4 the percentage is 98% at GCSE. Do the league tables use 9-4 or 9-5?

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that if your child is OK with and understands the journey and if the independent has a better curriculum offering, then go with that. If the curriculum offering is the same or very similar, go with the grammar.

DD chose a v selective independent an hour's journey away over a super-selective grammar about half an hour away. I mention the selectiveness because I think probably both schools have very similar populations of pupils in terms of ability so that was not a factor in the decision. I did want her to be at a school where she would have lots of intellectual peers because her primary experience had not been good in that way and she was unhappy at times because of it.

One of the main reasons both she and I preferred it was because the GCSE choices were better - the language provision in particular was streets ahead. I thought DD would be good at languages and she is and I was happy to send her somewhere where everyone would do at least three languages (Latin and two MFLs) for the first few years and have the option to do more than one at GCSE. The grammar offered two languages in total plus Latin. Sure, they could do all three for GCSE but there wasn't any choice. The independent offered a choice of six with taster sessions in Y7 so that DD could find out which she actually liked and wanted to study. DD could have done four languages at GCSE if she had wanted to (two MFLs plus Latin and Ancient Greek). If she'd been a more scientifically minded child, I think the grammar would have been almost as good for her really. But she's not especially interested in Maths or Science, and in addition to languages, the art, music and drama opportunities offered a lot more which was important to both of us.

So look at the curriculum and the GCSE options and think about what would suit your child. And also ask your child about the journey. For DD it means that she leaves the house no later than 7.30am and doesn't get home until 5pm. That's a really long day for an 11 or 12 year old and she is still wiped out at the end of term at 16 years old. Only you know if your child or children would be OK with coping with that.

In short, for us the curriculum was the deciding factor, not the journey!