Third A level choice - hoping for Medicine

[Thisismynewname123]

DD (Y11) is hoping to study Medicine, so will definitely be choosing Chemistry and Biology A levels. Until recently she was hoping/assuming her third would be Physics as she's naturally good at it and enjoys it, however it looks unlikely school will allow Physics without maths. Although good at maths, she doesn't love it so it's thrown her a bit and she's feeling tied to a corner as if she has no choice but to do maths. She is doing AS level maths with her GCSEs, if that makes any difference.

We have checked Medicine degree requirements for many unis, and very few (some Cambridge colleges being the exception) require the third to be physics or maths. But in reality, do most unis prefer the third to be maths (given that physics isn't really an option for most, unless they take 4, and DDs school doesn't allow 4 unless the fourth is further maths)? Should she be looking to take maths as it will give her a better chance of success as getting into Medicine? Or a curve ball subject that she has never considered, but is just something she really enjoys (which would likely be geography) or something new like psychology.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor , I trust her teachers viewpoints on this. Her school has a very good track record for getting students onto Medicine courses and into Oxbridge. I will talk to them about her personally regarding Physics, but if it's going to make it harder for her without Maths, I'm veering towards thinking it's not worth the extra effort she will need to put in. She won't drop the AS maths at this stage. She's got this far and she isn't feeling as though it's more than she can manage so no reason to drop it now.

The third one can be anything you like. Maths is the most common, followed by Psychology but it can be anything (I know someone who did Film Studies) as long as you are enthusiastic about it.
Medical schools like their doctors to not all be identical nowadays.

A friend is a tutor and he suggested DS did maths / chem, physics then an ‘essay’ subject to give a ‘rounded’ education - writing essays is supposed a good option (I suppose any subject you do onto study will need essays).

@KittenKong biology is more useful than maths or physics. Lots of places need Chem and Bio so it keeps all options open.
I can't see why school won't let her sit Physics A level with an AS in maths - we have plenty who do all 3 sciences with no maths. If it's her best subject she should not find it difficult to understand the content.

She won't drop the AS maths at this stage. She's got this far and she isn't feeling as though it's more than she can manage so no reason to drop it now.

I can't imagine why someone upthread recommended dropping it, maybe they missed that she's doing it alongside GCSEs.

H @Thisismynewname123 DD is not a medic but did biomed for her first degree and infectious diseases for her Masters (where at least half of her fellow students were already qualified doctors). She did Psychology as her third A level, alongside chemistry and biology, and got offers from all the universities she applied to. She had GCSEs in maths, further maths and statistics (3 different GCSEs) and got As in all of them but didn't fancy taking the subject any further. At no point in either her undergrad or postgrad degrees did she have any issues with the level of maths involved – and epidemiology is a lot of maths!

My daughter loved her sciences and her physics teacher was keen she take it at A level (she got 8s in physics and bio and 7 in chem). What he never knew was that she was in third set maths and got a 6, her lowest grade. She wants to do a creative degree, but did flirt with taking biology A level and applied to sixth forms stating she wanted to take biology, art and history. In the end she opted for Psychology.
My point is that GCSE physics was enjoyable even without strong maths, but no way would she have done A level physics.
I think the message from other more knowledgeable posters is clear - your daughter's third can be just about any academic or even non academic subject as long as she earns top grades.

Yes I did miss that she is already doing it, but it won't tick boxes for lots of medical schools. They offer on three A levels and sometimes an EPQ.

Yes I did miss that she is already doing it, but it won't tick boxes for lots of medical schools. They offer on three A levels and sometimes an EPQ.

Not everything is just a means to a specific end, you know! In this case - hopefully it will be sufficient to allow her to do A level physics (I don't know what's on the syllabus nowadays but I'd have thought it might). And if it covers some statistics that's surely useful for medics - less to learn from scratch during the degree, maybe?

There is no hidden agenda at medical schools, if you meet the entry requirements they will not treat you any differently whether you did Maths/Bio/Chem or Art/Bio/Chem.

DS1 did Maths/Physics/Chem and said that he has used his A level Physics at St Andrews, but most won't have done it. Maths/Physics knowledge is needed for BMAT at GCSE level, but people who have not done Physics A level find they are a bit rusty. Apart from giving a BMAT advantage, Physics will not make a difference to her chances of getting in.

I would agree with the school that Physics without Maths makes it harder to get the top marks. DS2 says about 5% of the exam questions use maths knowledge which is taught in Maths A level and at his school the Physics teachers did not cover it as they assumed it had been learned in maths (eg logs), there is also a significant overlap between Mechanics and Physics.

The best subjects to choose are the 3 she is really confident she can get As in.

The subject requirements are:

Chem + 2 other sciences (Bio, Phys or Maths)
Most Cambridge colleges

Bio and Chem + anything else
Aston
Birmingham
Brighton and Sussex
Cardiff
Edge Hill
Exeter
HYMS
Imperial
King's
Lincoln
Nottingham
St George's
UCL

Chem + 1 other science (Bio, Phys or Maths) + anything else
Aberdeen
Bristol
Buckingham
Dundee
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Liverpool (3rd subject academic)
Oxford
QUB (need AS Biology if don't have A level)
St Andrews
UCLAN (3rd subject academic)

Bio + 1 of (Chemistry, Physics, Psychology, Sociology, Environmental Studies or Geography) + anything else
Southampton

Bio + 1 of (Chemistry, Physics, Maths or Psychology) + anything else
Plymouth

Bio or Chem + another maths/science + anything else
ARU
Leeds
Barts
Sunderland

Bio or Chem + another maths/science/psychology + anything else
Manchester
Sheffield
Kent and Medway
Leicester
Keele

2 out of (Bio, Chem, Psychology) + anything else
Lancaster

Bio or Chem plus any other 2
UEA

Any 3
Newcastle

psychology would be great - mental health knowledge would be so useful

i Know medics whose no 3 was music or drama.

Our eldest did Theology, Maths, Biology, Chemistry and Music. She hated physics and wanted to keep on with things she loved. She’s a GP and also working in palliative medicine now and says theology has been incredibly useful because it was ethics based. Her intercalated masters was in ethics.

Just one thing to consider - being "strong" at a subject in the run up to GCSEs is not necessarily indicative of doing well at A level. There is a massive step up between GCSE and A Levels. There are definitely subjects that are easier to do well in and as everyone has said, most med schools don't care what that 3rd subject is - just go with whatever will get her the highest grade (but in my view, that means she has to enjoy it too - its another 2 years of study).

But def no need to do 4 A-levels let alone 5

Indeed - two done early as a stretch choice for higher achieving set of pupils. As importantly is understanding requirements for UKCAT and BMAT and becoming comfortable with the format, practicing similar tests online or in books.

I don’t understand why she can’t do physics without maths A level. I’m a physics teacher and we ask that students get at least a 7 in maths GCSE (demonstrating reasonable ability), but beyond that I’m perfectly capable of teaching the mathematics required to excel in A level Physics. While approx 40% of the course involves higher level mathematical skill, that leaves 60% as wordy stuff. (For comparison, chemistry is approx 20% maths and bio is approx 10% iirc.)

That said, her third A level should be whatever she is most likely to get an A / A* in. That will depend on interest as well as aptitude. A level requires a lot of time on each subject, and it is much harder to spend so much time on something you don’t enjoy.

DS2 says about 5% of the exam questions use maths knowledge which is taught in Maths A level and at his school the Physics teachers did not cover it as they assumed it had been learned in maths

Then those Physics teachers are either lazy, incompetent or both. It is just not acceptable to fail to teach a section on the course because you’re hoping a teacher in an entirely different subject has taught it well. And even if they have taught it well, they won’t have taught how to apply that knowledge in a Physics context.

I think we'll have to put the conversation on hold until we've been able to talk to her teachers. After the last few days of coming round to doing an alternative third, she's come home today saying she just enjoys physics the most, although she's worried about the how hard the A level has a reputation for being. She is predicted a 9 in gcse physics, whereas chemistry and biology (which she will definitely do A levels in, assuming all goes well) she's predicted an 8. So we'll have to wait and see if the physics teacher will make an exception on the maths for her.

What he said was that they teach you how to apply things in Physics, but don't teach you what, for example, logs are in the level of detail you learn in Maths. I don't think they are lazy or incompetent. He absolutely felt that doing Maths A level helped him to get an A* in Physics, but that if he had not done Maths A level he would have just needed to do some extra work in some areas.