A level choices

[Wobblypig]

Really struggling with a level choices. Got it done to maths ( with or without further maths) ; physics; economics; geography; Latin and need to chose 4.
My problem with this list is that it seems to me that for maths or physics to be a useful subject at a level you need further maths. The school have confirmed this and said that for most good unis if you want to do engineering; physics or economics at degree level further maths is required. So this severely limits your options and really puts all your eggs in 1 basket.
Has anyone’s child chosen maths ; further maths and physics without really knowing what they want to do; anyone regretted it?
on the flip side anyone chosen not to further maths and found they did need it?

My two cents
You would probably do well to choose further maths if you will do engineering or physics at undergrad. It is not only selection but also will make your life easier and give you confidence at the start of studies.
If you choose further maths, you need 4 subjects. But remember there is a lot of overlap with physics, maths and further maths, so if you are math inclined, not as daunting as it seems.
Don't think you would regret it unless you don't really like the subjects.
I don't think you need further maths for economics but others may give more insight.

My ds's school suggests FM is needed for economics at Cambridge and LSE. I have a friends dc studying economics at UCL and says FM would have been a help for the course they are currently studying. (They didn't take it).

OP, my ds is similar, currently choosing a levels and is a good all rounder, seems sad he will have to drop an essay based subject like history at such a young age.

I would go with maths, FM, physics and either Geography or Latin. Geography might go quite well and opens up various options.

That keeps the door open to all the engineering etc courses, but gives him something different as well. He won't need econ A level for an economics degree.

Don't choose FM unless the person really likes maths and is going to get an 8/9 at GCSE.

I think you need to think about 'useful subject'. It seems to me you are saying 'as a required subject when continuing at uni' rather than 'interesting in its own right'.

Maths, Economics & Geography for example would sure leave a lot of uni courses open? Yes it might close off maths degree or Economics at LSE or Cambridge, but it keeps open geography related things instead.

Agree FM is a good idea if planning to take maths degree (essential actually) or physics. Not essential for engineering ime. I know plenty of dc doing engineering without FM.

If they do FM surely they will do 4 - that us usual.

Maths on its own deffo not pointless tho. Ds2 did maths and is doing a science degree. All good. Btw agree with the lovely @TeenDivided about grades needed. Ds2 got 8 at GCSE and found A level maths a challenge, come out with a B. I actually wouldnt advise maths if dc was not set yo get a straightforward 9 tbh. You have to LOVE maths to devote more than half your week to it.

No need fir economics A level for a degree in it tho so yy, how about geography for a fourth?

What's the post A level plan? Assuming uni what sort of level - Oxford, Imperial? Or Bath, Loughborough? Or Kent, Hull?

FM wouldn't be needed for the latter, absolutely required for the former (for Phys, Eco, Eng degrees).

So I'd suggest Maths, Physics, Economics (but Eco is a marmite subject so check content is what dc wants - swap for Geog if not), then either FM as the fourth, or Geo or Latin depending on suitability of Eco.

Economics A level might not be needed to do Economics at uni, however trying it at A level would be a way to know how interested someone is, and it would be useful knowledge in its own right for future life wouldn't it?

Surely the DC should pick what they fancy most / do well in but be aware of what they are ruling out. By the nature of A levels certain courses are ruled out, they just need to try not to rule out things they might want to go for later.

Do you need A-level Economics or Geography to do a degree in it?
You'll need A-level physics to go into degree level courses and most schools would suggest that a 4th subject is FM so Physics, Maths and FM would be my starting point.
I did FM and went to LSE. It made the first year easier and it was very common to have it amongst my peers. I went to a school that didn't offer Economics but I taught myself the A-level syllabus in my gap year and got an A in the exam.

What titchy said.

There aren't that many courses where FM is 'required', however the advice my DD got (from admissions tutors she emailed, not school staff) when she was considering her choices was that it'd be harder to hit the ground running on an engineering degree if she'd not done it. Fortunately for her she knew for sure she wanted to be an engineer, and it was pre-reform so she did Physics, maths and fm plus CS to AS and an EPQ.

Maths, fm and physics doesn't put all your eggs in one basket, they allow for maths, physics, engineering (all types except chem eng) comp sci, which is quite a lot of baskets. But definitely start with 4. If they're clever and hard working enough to be realistically considering the sorts of courses where FM is pretty much essential, they should be up for doing 4 A levels.
It's a bit hard to see what Latin adds in terms of keeping more doors open.

If the DS loves maths and is seriously wondering about maths or physics or engineering or comp sci then fine 2 maths, physics + ANOther. But in that case I'd expect them to be knowing that already and saying they were definite A levels.

But if they don't love maths that much then more breadth would keep interest up and other doors open. Maths at A level gets pretty hard (and down right impossible at degree)

Don't take FM unless you love maths. And if you don't love maths, you won't be considering it as a degree subject :)

I would query the advice about needing FM for physics, engineering or economics. Check with individual universities.

Your post seems more focused on the future than actual likes/dislikes. Yes, you don't want to shut down options unnecessarily, but equally you don't want to study a subject "just because".

My son has chosen computer science, maths and physics - he doesn't really know what he wants to do

I have always run by this policy: do what you enjoy & you are good at, and it will likely lead towards other things you enjoy and are good at.
Not fool proof, and people definitely should check course requirements for uni when picking A levels, but has worked quite well.

When checking out whether Further Maths is required, don't just ask if it is required; ask what percentage of students have it. Sometimes courses don't want to exclude those who might not have had the opportunity to do it, but when it comes to it, 95% of students do, and the other 5% have to work extra hard. It's bound to help on almost any physics/engineering course, as much of the content will need to be covered sooner or later. Economics is quite variable, I think, with some courses doing much more of the mathematical side than others.

@Wobblypig, As others have mentioned, your child should choose the subjects they enjoys most. Also, schools generally allow Year 12s to change a subject early on. (Bear in mind that a lot can change very quickly in one's teens and that it's impossible to cover all bases at this stage.)

Thanks for the advice. He doesn’t really love anything . I just don’t want him to pick physics and maths only to realise he can’t do anything with them because he hasn’t done FM.
it does seem that the school and many universities want them to do FM if they chose maths and physics.

Apart from medicine , which he definitely won’t do, I can’t see many courses which want maths but not FM.

@Wobblypig maybe not maths as such, but maths is a science and plenty if unis look for that. My ds is studying biological sciences and ideally needed two sciences - skills his maths counted for that. I cannot think that no FM closes any door except maths degree. And if you live maths that much, no doubt you would choose FM.

Just at random I searched Nottingahm uni fir Bsc physics - requires maths and physics but no mention of FM.

Physics without maths at A level IS unususl; but without FM, very standard.

You definitely don't need FM for most of the engineering courses. Most will want Maths and a Science like Physics or Chemistry.

It might be worth looking at Unis that they are interested in abs seeing what their requirements are

Sorry for typos in previous posts, hope meaning was clear. Just searched economics at Warwick ,(a good uni I guess) and they specify maths Astar but no mention of FM.

Think your school are misleading your ds tbh. Fm is not good if you don't love maths.

Both of my DCs went to red brick universities - 1 did engineering and 1 did maths. Neither have FM at A level although both self studied it to AS level. Not all schools offer FM so most courses do not say it is compulsory ….but it helps.

As many people have said, it will depend on where he is aiming to apply. DS1 has just started at Cambridge doing engineering and took FM, Maths, Physics and DT. He also had offers from Imperial, Bristol, Durham and Loughborough; Cambridge, Imperial and Bristol all said that if your school offered FM, they expected you to have taken it if you were applying for engineering. (They weren't interested in his DT grades at all). DS said that he's really glad he did do FM - it's really helped in this first term.

I would echo others though, that if he's not 100% committed to maths or engineering at a top flight uni, then don't take it - doing maths and FM means they spend a LOT of time just doing maths in their two years of A Level so they have to enjoy it - and the drop out rate from FM is high.

Further to PanicMode's post - from the POV of the OPs DC, the sorts of courses where FM is tantamount to being required or 'highly desirable' are going to be asking for A and A star grades (Cambridge engineering the stars must be on physics and FM). Some of the next rung in terms of requirements may not specify FM but will still want As and A stars. So it's probably not a good idea to do 3 inc FM unless realistically you're going to get top grades (unless weaker in all alternatives).

No university requires further maths for economics.

LSE's BSc economics only requires an A in regular maths. The rest doesn't matter provided you get A's or better. What they'd prefer is an A in regular maths plus at least an A in further plus at least an A in a third essay-based subject.

Warwick and Cambridge are similar, though I think they require two at least A*'s, one of which must be in maths.

sorry, my asterisks became bold font - what I meant to say is that you need A-star [regular] maths for all three of those courses.