Is a grammer school the right thing

[Unsuredad123]

Just a bit of background my DW went to grammar school but didn't like it, whereas I went to a comp although not not a great one.As such we have different thoughts on the grammar vs comp school debate.

We felt 11plus and grammar schol wasn't right for DD1 and she seems to be doing well in Yr 7 of a local comp. We asked DD2 what she wanted and initially she didn't want to do 11 plus but then in June of Yr 5 she changed her mind. She hadn't seen any secondary schools, grammar or comps so we to see the local grammar school before the end of the summer term and have since been to the comp open evenings.

She had an hour a week tutoring, with a couple of practice papers over the summer along with a couple of mocks and she has now passed the 11plus. She seems a capable child and she seems to do well with minimal effort, but until recently has always been a struggle to get homework done, homeschooling over lockdowns where a write off. Practical hands on learning seem to be where she learns best.

Have spoken to other parents at the grammer, and read on MN all the previous posts about the school, which I hadn't realised was so saught after. It obviously has good academic results but lacks the softer subjects that DD enjoys at the moment, while the comp seems to more rounded in studies, results aren't as high.

We have tried to put our own experiences of grammer/comps aside. DD, DW and myself are on the fence about it all, we appreciate how much time money and effort others put in to be in this position.

We now have a tricky half term week to think about what order we put the schools at the end of the month. Any thoughts appreciated

My DD was like yours (year 9 now). Very naturally bright and musical. Scraped into the grammar school although she wasn´t formally tutored. (We had her IQ checked for another reason and found her to qualify for Mensa!) She was able to keep up with the pace of work, but I always had a nagging feeling she was just winging it. Very little homework, and as you say, homeschooling was a non starter. She has just decided, with my support, to leave the grammar school as she is finding the single sex and high pressure environment has made her miserable and she is going to a very good mixed comp after half term. Remember - the results at the comp wont be as high, because they are an average of the mixed ability. The grammar school starts with the brightest students, therefore they are not necessarily adding value, so I wouldn´t read too much into that. Think about the subjects your daughter enjoys, and where you think she would be happy.

Does she want to.go.to grammar school? If she does, I wouldn't deter her as she may resent you for this later.

If she got in with minimal tutoring it is likely she is bright enough to keep up with the work. Some of the softer subjects she enjoys could be pursed outside school.

Unless it is a really toxic environment or she really doesn't want to go, I would send her.

Some questions: Why did you feel 11 plus wasn’t something to be considered for DD1? What did you say to DD2 about sitting the 11 plus? Do you live in a LA where her score will mean she gets a grammar offer or will other factors, e.g. distance and lack of siblings or faith mean she may not get a place. What softer subjects will she lose out on and what additional subjects are offered, e.g. triple science, wider choice of languages. Have you read the Ofsted reports (how recent are they)? What are the results at GCSE and A Level, what are the progress scores and what information do you have on leaver destinations?

Unless you positioned sitting the 11 plus as giving her a wider choice of options, it would seem perverse for her to pass and then be sent to a non-selective option, which if you live in a fully selective LA lacks approx. 25% of the cohort. If the non-selective option is really strong then I wonder why you wanted her to sit the 11 plus unless there is a so called grammar stream.

my ds1 didn’t want to go to grammar, we never pressurised him into sitting the 11+. DS2 wanted to go to the grammar, completed 11+ and was awarded a place. DS1 thrived in his comprehensive school, and exceeded our expectations at GCSE. DS2 is now in his final year at Grammar. My experience has been that I have seen a bigger improvement in DS1 through his comprehensive school than I have from the grammar. Our grammar is single sex. Child in comprehensive had a much more rounded education, but I guess god personality may have driven some of the changes. Listen to your child and what they want.

Don’t take away the grammar place. Of course it will teach academic subjects but you know that before taking the test! It will be so disappointing for her if she doesn’t go and what about resenting you later on? My aunt passed and was not allowed to go. It stayed with her all her life. She felt she was robbed - and she was. So let her start at the grammar. There’s always another school if it’s not right. Also do other activities out of school. But don’t take her success away.

We haven't presured either DD so with DD1 we took advise from her teachers as well as knowing what she was like in pressured environments and made the decision not to sit the 11 plus. it was a little surprise for DD2 to make her late announcement that she wanted to try it. We let her try it as it would give her another option, not knowing if we would need it or not.

At the moment she seems to be more on the idea of the grammar school but that might be that we have been talking about it more than the comp. We want her to understand that it is likely to have more homework and possibly higher expectations than the comp. We could have this all wrong.

The both options do triple science, grammar none or limited technologies, but more language options than the comp, while the comp seems to offer more sports/PE options.

Transport wise I can drop off at the comp or she could get the bus with her sister, on a public bus. Grammar has a school has a coach service which adds to the day.

Our thoughts are she could thrive at either school. We don't know if she just scrapped in or was higher up the pass rate, so she could be at the top of her year or at the bottom of a high achieving year. But like a few have said, could look to transfer to another school of she doesn't get on with the grammar.

The grammar will live or die on their results, and with that comes the expectation on every pupil there to help them in this mission. For some that is just fine, they love the work needed and they thrive. Others do not like the pressure, even if they are just as bright as the thriving pupil they might like to work at a slower pace and have time for many more extra curricular activities and a more sociable home life. It really comes down to you daughter's personality. Compare it to a swimming pool. I am a strong swimmer but personally I don't like to swim in the top lane, I like to swim for longer in the middle lane at a slightly slower pace, even though I am stronger and faster than some of those in the top lane. It is just how I like to swim.
The real difference to her outcomes are going to be you - and you sound like caring, supportive, thoughtful parents so I suspect your DD will thrive anywhere.

It depends where you live , if you are in Kent which is a fully grammar school area then the other schools ( with the exception of faith schools) will not be proper comprehensives - they are high schools .

I think if you live in an area with grammar schools, and your child can go to a grammar school, you would be foolish to not send the child to grammar school. The effect of grammar school streaming is that the non-grammar schools are generally worse than in areas without grammar schools, as the brighter and higher-achieving children go to the grammars.

My experience of grammar school was not that it was a particularly pressured environment. There were a lot of non-academic subjects which I hated (drama, food tech, textiles, design technology, also art and PE). Fundamentally I think school is more about the academics and a lot of the 'softer subjects' (not sure what you mean by this! arty? sporty?) are things that can better be pursued outside of school.

@Precipice
That is not true in Bucks. We have lots of high achieving DC in our secondary high schools. We are a grammar county but the grammars certainly don’t take all the DC who will do well. In fact some of our secondaries significantly out perform comprehensives in many areas. Just look at the stats for Waddesdon, The Misbourne and John Colet to name a few. The grammars are all outstanding but lots of secondaries are good. Parents don’t flee from them and support them.

The grammars here suites rounded DC. There’s something for everyone. Of course Dc do well but the curriculum is broad, as it should be. Art is often superb and of course sport and music are too. Many Dc want a varied curriculum at school and get it.

I wouldn’t be too worried about her pass mark given she hasn’t had long term tutoring. I once knew a barrister who had the lowest pass mark of his year to one of the super selective grammars and he outperformed many of his peers at the public examinations.

So bottom of the top 1%??? That’s not very far off the top 0.5%. Poor lamb must have felt so stupid!

Thank you for your comments. After much thought from us and my DD, she wanted us to put the grammar as her first choice.

At the moment she has her head round the idea that her group of friends will be split over 4 schools, although she might be the only one at Colyton. Now the long wait until March for it all to be confirmed.

Fingers crossed we made the right choice for her but only time will tell. By the time DD3 is in this position we will have experience of 2 different schools to draw from.

@Unsuredad123
@goodbyestranger might be able to offer advice regarding that grammar.

Both our DDs passed the 11+ and went to an all girls' grammar school. I was once a huge advocate for grammar school education, but now I'm ambivalent. It's a pressured environment and you are just expected to keep up. The levels of bitchiness, especially in the lower years often reached epic levels and pastoral were very ineffective.

DD1 excelled at English Literature and the school heavily encouraged her to sit the Oxford Open Exam. But when she decided to follow her love of art and applied to Art Schools instead, they immediately lost interest in her future.

I also disliked how intensely focused the work was. Very little 'reading around the subject' was encouraged. Students were basically turned into Exam Robots and just drilled in how to pass exams.

Many of the girls achieved all Level 6s in their Yr 6 SATS, so it was very hard for the grammar to show much in the way of 'value added'. DD2 was hopelessly bored by the maths lessons until Yr10 because she was held back in order to show sufficient 'value added', I suspect. She did Further Maths at GCSE but none of that group was allowed to take even just Maths GCSE a year early - ridiculous when they could easily have got an excellent grade taking it in Yr 10 or even Yr 9. But the school was terrified to take the chance that one or two students might drop a grade and only get a Level 8 rather than Level 9.

On the whole, I now consider grammar schools to be just Exam Factories where teachers rest of their laurels knowing the students will do very well in exams, regardless. The provision for schooling during lockdown was absolutely appalling with virtually zero contact with teachers. The struggling 'sink' comprehensive down the road ran proper, Zoom lessons for 5.5 hours per day, 5 days a week for their students.

Soberingly, neither of our DDs would ever consider sending their DDs to the same grammar school, which says it all really.

My DD sat 11+ this year and now got a good chance to get in one superselective grammar in North London. I was pro-grammar before but after the process I have serious doubts.

The prep for getting in the school is insane, some children I met in the open day start tutoring from year 1 and has not much life outside study. There is literally no ethnic diversity in the school. All I feel is an enviroment full of pressure from pushy parents with only focus on exam grades. I don't think that will be the kind of school for my daughter for the next 7 years. Now I'm looking for private options.

@peaceandove I agree with you the grammar school may not be adding value - attainment score is high because it selects for certain kind of children that will do well in exam (either natural academic abilities or family pressure environment or both). And they will probably do whatever it takes to make sure their progress school look good too.

@PreplexJ
Im in Bucks where many of the grammars do add value. Some are even well above average for p8. They are not hot houses either because they don’t get vast numbers to Oxbridge. In addition, if parents don’t like a school, leave. Others are available. If your Dc gets a grammar place, the pace is faster then other schools. ALL schools are exam factories. They have no choice. If anyone wants the perfect school, it’s difficult to find. Anyone in Bucks truly knows what they are getting and so many parents tutor endlessly for the grammars. If they didn’t, the correct Dc would be chosen. I don’t know of a single child that didn’t like their grammar. They thrived. As did many at the other schools. If parents didn’t push so hard, Dc would be in schools that suited them. But: it’s all about status and not accepting Dc isn’t best placed in a grammar.

@TizerorFizz London grammar schools are very different

My DD hated her all girls grammar in Bucks and has just left in year 9. We did chuckle at the gasps of disbelief when we told people she was moving, but she has gone out of county to be in a true comprehensive, rather than an upper school, and she is much happier. However, I agree with everything else you have said.

@Handoverthechocollate
Many parents won’t move Dc out of the grammars though even when it’s clear it’s not the best school for them. Also travel to an out of county school can be expensive and a longish journey. Happy DC thrive educationally and it’s best Dc are happy at school and of course, that doesn’t have to be a grammar.

@peaceandove I also disliked how intensely focused the work was. Very little 'reading around the subject' was encouraged. Students were basically turned into Exam Robots and just drilled in how to pass exams.

My DCs are in a Bucks grammar (actually one left for uni this year) and your comment above is the complete opposite of what I experienced, particularly with A level work where all subject tutors were actively encouraging wider reading. I can't understand why they would discourage it as it makes for far better understanding leading to better end results.

I agree with @TizerorFizz that the grammars here are not the pressure cookers described by some above, certainly not the boys schools anyway.