Help in choosing secondary school

[Stowic22]

We're genuinely undecided which school to go to for DD2.

In many ways school A is a no-brainer. Outstanding-rated all girls school that is a 10 minute walk from home and all the girls in her class are going to. But DD2 feels she's outgrown her friends - no bullying or other issues, just a bit bored by them - and would quite like a mixed school.

School B is a mixed school that has had pretty poor results in the past. A new head started in 2019 and seems to be turning it round. He's very inspirational, has managed to get funding for new buildings and sports ground, and seems to have a strong vision for the school. There are slightly smaller classes, 10 teachers across 8 classes so groups of 24-25, and very wide curriculum which appeals to DD2 - they offer Latin, Greek & Class Civ as well as loads of GCSE options - and DD2 really liked it. It's extremely culturally diverse, lots of kids with ESL. It's about a 20 min walk from home to a less lovely part of the suburb, and a handful of kids from her school may go but none of her close friends.

School C is the preferred choice from her primary for everyone who isn't a girl or wants mixed. It's in a slightly nicer part of the suburb than school B, still very diverse. Also about a 20 min walk. Academic results were a bit better than School B in the past but this year's P8 has School B higher. Massive emphasis on community and pastoral care, less on academic results. I worry about it's ability to add academic value .

On paper School A is the clear winner, it's a really nice school, lovely grounds and great results, far better than national averages. But DD2 is very drawn to School B. She's not particularly into sports, likes drama & reading, very confident and out-going. Academically, she's solidly top half of class without challenging the top handful but her current school is not a very challenging environment where the middle kids kind of get of get left to get on with it. Catchment wise will we will get into whichever we put first.

Sorry for the essay but would welcome thoughts.

From your summary: B.

When was A last inspected? a lot of schools rated Outstanding haven't been inspected for years.

The only thing is this. If DD wants mixed and there is an all girls school taking away girls, are B & C balanced or very boy heavy? I think I'd want to know that pastoral care was strong and they clamp down hard on any sexist behaviours.

It's a good point about boys and girls ratio. It's about 60:40 in both mixed schools. Behaviour served very good in School B, school C I've had mixed reports about - but to be fair I know lots of children at school C and only one at school B.

School A Outstanding Ofsted dates back to 2018 so they may lose it. Their results are still pretty great for a non-selective school in an area with high FSM & ESL, P8 this year is 0.6, while the other two are -0.2 and -0.6 respectively.

School A Ofsted is still relatively recent and results look good. It seems a bit unfair to force your DD to a single sex environment though. On the other hand she may have outgrow her current friends, but she will make new ones wherever she goes.
Is she the type to get on and work hard regardless or would a more 'pushy' environment be needed?
How about B A C?

Have you been able to tour the schools during the daytime with your dd? That can be helpful in decision making.
Teacher ratios in B may change as the recruitment crisis in education continues to bite.

On paper I agree, A is the no-brainer. That's a great P8 and recent Ofsted too. Girls statistically do better academically in an all-girl environment. Friends are a real red herring IME, both ways. None of my 3 stayed close to their closes primary friends.

But but, your Dd has a view and is entitled to it. Does she want mixed just because of her friends and outgrowing them? How big is the SS school?

I went to an all girls school and did not like it, tho I did well academically (and much less well at my mixed sex uni haha). But that was 40 (😲) years ago and things have changed. I lived rurally so school was my only way to socialise. You may live somewhere that gives more opportunities OP. Also phones and SM make it easier to communicate. My issue with SS was that I didn't really know how to relate and get along with boys.

But friends with DDs at single sex schools were happy. Not sure if any of that is Amy help!

Yes I agree with @MinnesotaMuffin , don't give too much weight to teacher ratios as they may change.

Also, I would dig a bit deeper about the number of GCSE options at B. It’s a few years before your dd is in Y10 and the curriculum policy could change. If EBbac ends up driving the curriculum she may not have that many options anyway.

But if your dd wants B it looks like a good bet.

My suspicions about the subjects you mention are that they are provided by one member of staff (possibly even the Head) because they are a classicist. Which means that when they go, the entire tranche of subjects go.

DD1 went to a school that did Latin from Y7 for those who had higher CAT4s. She was good at it, too - but by the time she was halfway through Y8, the Head who gave permission for it was off to greater things, the staff member had their classes cut by the incoming head who thought it was elitist and too ethnocentric, the staff member promptly left (to go to the school the outgoing head was then leading) and DD retains some irritation that despite knowing Caecilius' dog was a very loyal dog, she was unable to capitalise on that knowledge in any practical manner in the jobs market.

The main thing is the Progress 8, though. The other schools are not improving outcomes for their students - they're actually doing worse than expected, whereas the SS one is doing really, really well.

I think you are in the happy position that your DD will likely do well wherever she goes. So that should take pressure off.

With that in mind, I'd be tempted towards B as it's DD's preference. The friends element wouldn't be a consideration for me, but the additional curriculum options would be (does this mean that the curriculum is more limited at the other schools or just they don't offer extra options?) particularly as they seem to be ones that fire her interest. I would however say that I doubt they will keep their smaller class sizes for much longer with all the pressure on school budgets - although they should hopefully got to a maximum of 30.

As a teacher, I wouldn't go for school B, personally, although I might well choose it over school C.

The issue with a school being "turned around" by a new head is that often it's a very fragile thing, and if something goes wrong, or the head leaves, then the school is likely to return to its previous state. I would imagine there has been a lot of staff turnover in the school since the new head joined, and staffing may not be fully settled yet, which is also an issue. The GCSE options sound cool, but they may not be offered in 4 years time- so I wouldn't make the choice for that reason. With the class sizes, they do sound great, but is the school currently not taking its full PAN? If so, I would expect them to increase if the school becomes more popular.

If a school has high EAL, you'd usually expect a positive progress 8, because often students don't have the language to do well in SATs, but do by GCSE. A negative progress 8 in a high EAL school would concern me (although obviously it does depend on the joining points of the students). I'd also add that if your DD is likely to be aiming for top grades, progress 8 isn't the only relevant measure. You can get a good progress 8 as a school without challenging/pushing the very top students enough.

I think an Ofsted from 2018 is pretty recent- it's the ones from say over 8-10 years ago that feel more irrelevant.

To me, school B feels like a gamble- it might work, but it might not. But if your DD is really against single sex, I do think school B sounds like a better option than school C.

What would your chances be of getting a place at school A later on if school B didn't work out?

These are all brilliant points and give me food for thought.

School B, they are taking in a fair few refugees so a cohort from Afghanistan, Ukraine etc which I think mean their EAL is starting at a later stage. Agree that school B is a risky option though.

They are committed to the Latin etc, it's been part of their curriculum for a long time. The wide options are offering things like economics, business studies, 6 different types of art - photography, textiles etc, plus languages. If they can get 10 students, they will run it, but I think it's a good point about changing leadership. It has been under subscribed, but now only has 18 places across the school.

The girls school - it's not quite as big but still 180 kids - also does Latin initially for 2 high literacy classes, and later offers it as an intensive GCSE. They offer either Spanish or French and top 30 get to take the second language in Y8. School B you choose either Spanish or French, and school C has a very odd (IMO) system where you do each for 6 weeks at a time. So every half term you're switching between Spanish and French.

Should add none of the schools have 6th forms, but the girls is the teaching school of the borough for the other ones. Distance wise, we're in London so all the schools are within a mile of each other so she'll be easily able to catch up with friends in other schools.

I think I'm now leaning more towards girls. It's very hard to get past the results, but also friends have happy daughters there.

Depending on the borough (don't feel you have to say) they may get more funding than schools in other areas, but I am amazed that running a GCSE option for 10 students is financially viable for the school. If the school is actually running at a deficit, its finances will unfortunately come under scrutiny, and so it may not last.

It is a real shame, because theoretically I support what they are trying to do, but I don't see how it can work long term.

If EAL students are joining later, then I wouldn't expect such high progress, but I still wouldn't active choose a school with a negative progress 8 score, and possibly not very high attainment, either. A progress score of +0.6 is really pretty good, especially in comparison.

I don't mean to be overly critical of school B- but sometimes schools can get away with things in the short term that aren't sustainable long term (particularly if finances get tight this winter). Either that, or they are cutting corners elsewhere e.g. not employing enough/any support staff.

Either way, I do think a school where changes are potentially reliant on one person (who has been in post for only 3 years?) is a risk. It might pay off for your DD, but I do think school A is the safer bet.

Personally I would not choose a school solely on progress 8. However, I would not want to chose a school with a negative progress 8. She may have outgrown her friends but there will be plenty more to meet at School A. I think B is a real gamble.

Part of their curriculum for a long time can often mean 'the teacher who runs this is coming up to retirement' these days and once they're gone, the chances of finding a replacement who is also luckily a specialist in that particular niche is highly unlikely. It's hard enough to find language teachers who teach more than French and Spanish these days, for example, never mind photographers, potters, classicists and dancers.

The way a school under PAN tries to make up the missing income can also be a concern - it could be by having to take every Fair Access Panel student in the locality, which could include a significant number of kids excluded for very serious behaviour towards others especially towards girls, involved in criminality, etc. And the loss of income from being under PAN is often a driver of abandoning niche subjects, as they're the only thing that can give when they're struggling to recruit staff in core subjects (as most schools are now) - it's not right, but if you've got a teacher who teaches Psychology, it's tempting to tell them they're teaching KS3 Physics this year because they have an A level in it if the alternative is an unqualified cover supervisor and some worksheets.

As you can guess, I've worked at a school quite similar. I really wouldn't recommend it. And the head was gone within 2 years. The school followed shortly afterwards.

Thanks that's a really helpful insight.

If I don't look at P8, what are the other helpful stats to consider?

I've seen all 3 schools at open days but only managed to get a daytime visit at school B.

P8 can be broken down further into subgroups - EAL, Free School Meals, etc. There's also Attainment 8 and destinations after Y11.

But if you're in England, you've got to submit your application and preferences by 31st October, so I'd be inclined to put down the SS school as #1 and then, if it turns out to be less than you imagined by Christmas next year, the undersubscription at the other schools means you should have no problem at all changing at any point.

There are slightly smaller classes, 10 teachers across 8 classes so groups of 24-25

I'd be wary of relying on this to stay - it'll be the first thing under the bus when budgets start to squeeze (i.e. now).

From what you’ve said school B sounds most promising. Unless she is not very academic in which case school C.

As pp said I think the friends issue is a red herring as she will make new ones wherever she goes. But I wouldn’t want to send my child to a single sex school unless they were all for it.