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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

No Stem A Levels a mistake?

27 replies

torbygirl · 17/10/2022 10:09

DS is currently applying for college and is leaning towards Lit, German, history and art. He is doing really well in all subjects (7+ in all end of Y10 mocks) and all his teachers have said he'd do well at their A Level. He's not sure what he wants to do ultimately but is considering law and is not excited by maths/science as he is history and lit - they are really his passions.

I'm not sure whether he wouldn't be better swapping art perhaps for maths or chemistry. He says most people drop one of the 4 and if he does drop one it would be art so no point taking a Stem just to probably drop it. He's adamant he would never drop any of the other 3 and I know they are his passions and that a language is great to have, so I completely see where he's coming from! I'm just worried about his options afterwards though.

What do others think? I'd be grateful for any opinions.

OP posts:

EduCated · 17/10/2022 10:17

There’s no point taking STEM subjects if he’s not interested in it.

Also arguably little point taking one Science subject without also taking Maths or other sciences - if he did go onto a science based area afterwards maths is almost always necessary or extremely useful to the point of unofficially necessary.

So Maths potentially more useful, but only if he’s going to actually achieve it and I don’t think Maths is one you can bumble along in without being truly motivated by it (true of all subjects really, but Maths harder to cram/pull it back later on).

Languages are strong subjects, and Lit and History are well regarded whichever way you look at them, especially for Law/Arts subjects.

Doing 4, and doing Art as the fourth particularly, seems unnecessary. Art is a time sink, which is ok if it’s what you absolutely want to do, but if he’s likely to drop it surely the time would be better spent consolidating the other three - it’s almost always better to have three higher grades than four slightly lower.

StillNotWarm · 17/10/2022 10:23

He should take the subjects he loves.

I wouldn't take chemistry as a stand alone STEM subject. Maths would fit with his other choices, but if it's Art he wants to try, let him go for it.

Swedishmeatball · 17/10/2022 10:24

If he’s considering law then I would suggest all the writing and research subjects he can fit in, don’t worry about no STEM. Though I would suggest maths instead of Art. I’m a banking lawyer and we can usually leave the tricky financial things to the accountants and tax lawyers but it does help to be numerate.

senua · 17/10/2022 10:36

all his teachers have said he'd do well at their A Level.
It's flattering, but they do it for all able students. They are recruiting for their subject.

Agree with EduCated: if STEM doesn't appeal then don't do it. Art is a time-sink.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2022 10:37

There's not too much point just doing chemistry, it's unlikely to 'open doors' (though it would be good if more lawyers were vaguely scientifically literate, of course). Maths though ... there have been serious miscarriages of justice because of lack of understanding of simple statistics.

But his other choices are all good subjects, would be fine for law I'm sure (maybe after a degree in one of them). Two essay subjects, a language and art sounds like a colossal workload though. Maybe he should consider doing the Lit, history and German and then an art-focussed EPQ (possibly an 'artefact' rather than essay based one)?

Poppiesway1 · 17/10/2022 10:39

I’d agree with @Swedishmeatball. my ds wants to do law, he was advised to take literature and essay based subjects, he didn’t need to do a level Law has chosen to do so. He’s thoroughly enjoying his subjects and is taking part in a regional 6Th form law competition which if they win they can go through to national competition. Something to write about in his UCAS statement 😂
if I’d tried to guide him towards stem subjects he wouldn’t have been as happy and as in to the subjects as he is.. and possibly not get the grades he needs for Uni

Marmee53 · 17/10/2022 10:40

I'm a Chemistry graduate and a teacher and would suggest that he doesn't choose a STEM subject unless he wants to.

Like other posters have said, you need two Sciences (and/or Maths) to pursue a STEM based degree anyway, so if he HAD to do one I'd say Maths.

What's more, the STEM subjects are HARD anyway even for people who want to do them, so if he's doing one for the sake of it, it might demotivate him.

converseandjeans · 17/10/2022 10:43

If he wants to do law/politics/international relations then those are good choices.

He has opted for subjects which are facilitating subjects.

You don't need STEM for law so why would he need to raid one of those subjects?

I think as a nation we have become obsessed with STEM to the detriment of other subjects.

German is a great option as it opens up opportunity to study or work abroad.

Original poster

torbygirl · 17/10/2022 10:43

Thanks all - sounds like I should leave the decision to him really!

OP posts:

Shamoo · 17/10/2022 10:47

I studied law at uni years ago and the advice then was to take Maths if you were able, and then other subjects you love (not A level law particularly). Maths helps with the logic needed to be a good lawyer. Other STEM subjects certainly not a requirement.

I did English Lit, Maths, Chemistry and Biology,
but had friends who had studied history, politics, Spanish, music, economics, geography - all sorts!

lanthanum · 17/10/2022 11:02

Swedishmeatball · 17/10/2022 10:24

I would have thought that someone who is good enough to consider A-level maths is already "numerate".

WireSkills · 17/10/2022 11:27

I have a Maths A-level and work in what would be considered to be a related field - accountancy.

In reality it has absolutely no bearing on my work and wouldn't have been necessary to get to where I have in life.

So, while maths might appear like the most obvious choice as a "more useful" topic, in reality there aren't many career paths within his areas of favour where this will be remotely useful.

Focus on what he likes and where he will do well and let that guide his path in life.

Zott · 17/10/2022 11:35

Yup, agreeing with others, study what he enjoys. You are fortunate he is enthusiastic about his learning.

KindergartenKop · 17/10/2022 13:14

Is this because you want him to do a STEM degree? Because he doesn't look like he wants that...
University courses for humanities/languages will be looking for 3 good grades in 'harder' subjects. Careful with art here because although it's not easy to do well in, it might not provide the intellectual rigour that top unis are looking for. However, as a fourth one it's fine.

KindergartenKop · 17/10/2022 13:17

Sorry, just read your post. For law I would recommend History, English Lit and Politics. Though German would be fine instead of politics. Watch out, a level languages are a huge jump from GCSEs. You go from asking where the beach is to discussing the ethical issues surrounding abortion.

InDIYHell · 17/10/2022 14:27

If it helps, DD now in year 13 had a similar dilemma, STEM is pushed a lot as being useful.

She took German, History, Biology & Chemistry - the first 2 being her favourites.

No surprises that she dropped Chemistry after 2 terms and has just got her UCAS predictions. A* for History and German but she's haggling for an A in Biology as is borderline B.

Biology on its own seems pretty pointless and if she went back in time she'd choose something else.

So I'd suggest going with what you enjoy, unless you have a specific career in mind that needs STEM subjects.

clary · 17/10/2022 14:44

Haha excellent @KindergartenKop. That’s true, tho tbf the first year syllabus for MFL A level is slightly less politicised – opening topics are usually the changing family and topics on German-speaking fashion and music.

Yay that he wants to take German A level @torbygirl – fewer and fewer schools and colleges are even offering it sadly. It will certainly be a worthwhile A level to take. And at least the new(ish) GCSE course is better prep for it that the old one.

Another bonus – the grade boundaries for the new A level have been kinder to Germanists over French students – the same mark in German in 2019, or 2018, and to some extent in 2022, would get you a higher grade in German than French, pretty much.

The books and films for German A level are great as well IMO.

Anyway I echo all others, no point him taking Maths A level if he doesn’t really want to. It’s a hard A level and there would be no advantage esp if he would gain a lower grade.

BasiliskStare · 17/10/2022 15:00

DS did History English and Theology and Philosophy at A level ( went on to do law conversion course.) He started Maths and was good at GCSE but the step up from GCSE maths to A level maths was huge ( for him - not so much so for some of his friends more talented in Maths ) So , he is numerate etc but the amount of time it was taking him to do the course was taking away from other subjects. So with the agreement of his teachers he gave it up. Which is not to say Maths is not a fantastic A level to do - but I would say most people who want to pursue a career in Stem will take Maths Physics and Chemistry ( or indeed just take them because they are good at them - other jobs / careers will be open to them. ) For law History & English are good because they require analysis.

MothBat · 17/10/2022 15:24

If he wants to continue some STEM could he do Core maths? Any interest in Psychology? Best to do three subjects he is in.

Cuppasoupmonster · 17/10/2022 15:28

I’m sure if he wanted to do those subjects he would choose them. I wouldn’t interfere he sounds like he’ll be fine whatever he does

Finerthings · 17/10/2022 15:40

DD is the same and I worry. She's great at Maths, but she doesn't realise how good she is or value how much easier she finds the revision and exams, compared with essay subjects.

She is wanting to do Psychology, so hopefully she'll get a bit of exposure to scientific studies and evaluating quantitative data.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2022 16:07

She's great at Maths, but she doesn't realise how good she is or value how much easier she finds the revision and exams, compared with essay subjects.
That may or may not hold true at A level compared to GCSE, of course. A level maths may not have as much 'revision', but typically they do a heck of a lot of working through past papers. Some kids thrive on this, others don't.

dingbat56 · 17/10/2022 16:16

For Law they are a good mix of subjects though I think the Art is a time sink and not needed . How about something like economics ?

I sympathise I’d have loved to carry on my Art but wasn’t good enough to make it worthwhile .. it is something that can be carried on in free time though

Copasetic · 17/10/2022 16:34

He needs the best grades he can get for Law. History is very well thought of, as if maths. I think in an ideal would he would have an essay writing subject (English or History) plus maths to show critical thinking skills, but is more important to get good grades. There is no point in attracting offers but then not being able to take them up because the grades weren't achieved. My daughter did Maths, Biology, Law and Government and Economics. When she started her degree her essay writing skills would not have been as strong as another getting an A/A* in history for example. I know for a face that was something she had to work on. He will get better grades from the subjects he likes best and that is the priority.

BasiliskStare · 17/10/2022 16:34

@ErrolTheDragon - Do I take it you know about Maths ? DH did Maths at university but by the end he said this is a step up & others can see things I cannot - he got a good degree from a good university but no PHD student he.

I gave up after the area under a curve. Had it explained to me more than once & realised I neither knew nor cared. Hence - English History & German at A level :)

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