International Baccalureat anyone?

[BaconAndAvocado]

DS15 is currently in Year 11 at one of the local grammar schools. His school have started telling the kids about the IB and the benefits of it versus A levels.
There is a meeting for parents next week.
Just wondered if anyone has experience of this qualification and how hard it is.
DS is not an all-rounder (better at Maths and Science rather than Humanities) and he can’t stand Foreign Languages, which I understand they have to take to complete the IB.
He would have the option of applying to another local grammar which offers just A levels.
He said he’s not sure what he wants to do yet. He doesn’t know which career path he wants to pursue.
Ive heard from other parents that the IB is difficult and I wonder whether he would be better off just studying 3 subjects that he likes.

Both my DDs did it and did fairly well, enough to get into good unis. DD was not an allrounder and struggled somewhat with Biology and Maths, but excelled at art which offset this. DD2 is more of an all rounder and did fine in all the subjects she took. Both said it was a godsend when going to uni as they had learned all the skills they needed for independent study. It was a lot of work though and they had to be rigorous about getting through the coursework and pieces to be submitted.

ApolloandDaphne thanks for your response. Yes, it’s the volume of work that puts me off.
Although DS is bright, he does need encouragement to study/revise and I don’t want the next 2 years to be a battle of wills!
I guess his decision will also be influenced by where his friends want to go.

Yeah he would have to be really up for doing the work. If he isn't then A levels might be the better option.

I think you might be right.
thanks for your input.

I think educationally it is a great thing to study a wider range subjects and the course is great preparation for university, maybe even better than A-levels - all the research projects and critical analysis. But it is a lot of work... My eldest says the first few years of med school were easier than doing the IB (although to be fair, he did have all the coursework due plus the UCAT/BMAT and interviews going on at the same time)

What does your DS think he might want to study? I would look at the IB and A-level offers at the universities he might be interested in. Some universities make lower offers for IB, and it is worth a lot of UCAS points (but not very many universities use UCAS points) but, often, getting the IB offer is harder than the equivalent A-level offer eg Cambridge offers are usually 42/45, almost impossible if you have 1 weak subject and there is always the risk of moderation pulling marks down on coursework. If he needs very high marks (A*/A) for the course he wants to study, he will need to be an all rounder to get the equivalent offer in the IB. On the other hand, some US universities accept it as credit for an entire year of university.

My DS had offers of 36, 38 and 39 with a minimum of 6 in all HL subjects from courses that wanted identical A-level grades. He rejected an offer that wanted a minimum of 5 in all the SL subjects too - it seems ridiculous that a university would reject a science student with 3 x 7 in HL sciences because they got a 4 in French but accept a student with the same overall score but only 3 x 6 at HL. To translate that, it's the equivalent of taking a student with 3 As and an A in GCSE French but rejecting a student with 3 A* just because they got a C in GCSE French

If your DS is more of a last minute reviser who can pull off good grades, the constant slog of assessed coursework might not suit him. On the other hand, if you do put the work in, good coursework marks take the pressure off the exams.

If he isn't a natural linguist, we were advised that it isn't a good idea to take a language they have already studied because the standard is quite high. It's easier to get a good mark learning a new European language ab initio. Could your DS manage to get to GCSE level in 18 months? What languages are on offer?

I would also ask about specific subjects once your DS knows what he would chose eg I believe Higher Level Further Maths is considered very difficult to get a top mark.

A levels: studying what he’s good at trumps IB. IB is great for true all-rounders but if he’s not interested in languages (such a shame at his age!) then why struggle on with one post gcse? If he’s best at STEM, do that at A level.

Look at university courses he might like and take the required A levels. IB is not necessary and most DC transition to study at university successfully after A levels. As DC are not stupid they really do know how to study after A levels.

The IB is expensive to run, so schools big it up. It’s not the best for everyone and isn’t offered at any of our county wide grammars. No shortage of fantastically academic students at them who succeed at university after A levels.

IB is well regarded by Universities- there are Higher level subject and standard level. You have to choose three (I think) at HL.
there is also an extended essay, a service aspect and a course called Theory of knowledge.
If you DS knows what he wants to do at uni then be aware if that as some courses require you study then at Higher Level. Of course that may also affect him if he doesn’t know now and decides later - and doesn’t have those subjects at HL

Depends on the child and their strengths, weaknesses and interests.

I was pretty good at most things but IB would have still been my idea of hell on earth. I knew exactly what I wanted to do for A levels and would have hated the broader curriculum.

One of my sisters however was in floods of tears over giving certain subjects up and she'd have been ideal for the IB.

IB was great for my DD2 - a strong all rounder who's quite organised and efficient, hardworking but not obsessive when it came to studying. Might have been OK for my eldest, if she had done it. Forcing her to continue with maths and science would have been good for her, but not what she wanted. For DS, it would have been a disaster, because he's way too disorganised.
I think the workload, esp the coursework, might break not only the disorganised but also the kind of people that can't switch off and won't hand in something that's 'good enough' without being perfect.
Also if a maths/CS degree is your ultimate goal, it might be a risky choice, as you're up against mathematicians from countries which teach a lot more maths at an earlier age. There's a LOT of syllabus to cover. But it works well for aspiring medics, as you'll be doing a lot of the extra curricular stuff anyway, and it's good to be able to show a more rounded education.
I think the way they do English lit on the IB is way preferable to the A level course, and for foreign languages, the ab initio is a good option for less enthusiastic linguists.
I agree with PP, it can be harder to meet your uni offers (although if you do miss an offer, there is often more leeway). For someone who's definitely more interested in the maths/science side of things, the IB isn't without advantages, but A levels + EPQ will be a safer and easier bet.

All our universities say they accept IB snd A levels. No advantage is conferred by IB. For some, A levels mean you study fewer subjects and that’s a big advantage if you are unsure about the other requirements of the IB and not being enthusiastic brings marks down. So it is not great for those who are not genuine all rounders. There’s no evidence IB confers greater flexibility regarding offers. That would clearly be unfair against stated A level offers. Or indeed BTec offers.

I am a diploma programme coordinator. I believe IB DP is the best pre university course. It does make the first year of university easier. There is research to show this but also I know from former students.,

Having the breadth is good and as others have said you do 3 subjects at Higher level and 3 at standard level so there is some flexibility.

Languages are available as Language and Literature or language acquisition.
Language and literature would probably be English in the UK.
Language Acquisition is available as B (either HL or SL) for students who have some prior knowledge or ab initio for complete beginners.

Maths Higher Level is acceptable for doing Maths at university. One of my students from last year has been allowed to skip some maths courses at her university in the US.

Theory or Knowledge and Extended Essay get them thinking outside the box and this is what really helps them at university.

Yes there is work throughout the course but in most subjects there is only one major submission.

I would also ask about specific subjects once your DS knows what he would chose eg I believe Higher Level Further Maths is considered very difficult to get a top mark.

Further Maths no longer exists.
There was a major change in Maths for the May 2021 exams onwards.

There are now two routes
Analysis and Approaches
Applications and interpretations

Both are available at Higher level and Standard level

There is also Creativity, Activity and Service which gets students to try new things and make sure they are balanced.

A lot of my students have picked up a new sport because of CAS and have loved it so much they have kept doing it at university.

It really is a special part of the programme

As well as being a DPC I have a daughter who will start doing DP next year.
I made sure I was in a school where she would get that opportunity.

I think this is it in a nutshell for DS, including the bit about his school bigging it up!

When I remember his older brother studying for A levels (albeit 4), the level of work was eye-wateringly high so I definitely think the IB would be unsuitable.

@BaconAndAvocado
The school has made a decision to offer this qualification. It’s costing them more than offering A levels, so it’s a risk. They need it to be a success. However it’s not better for stem. My DDs had time to do extra activities as well as their A levels. Not directed by IB but enjoyable things like dance and music. The EPQ helps transition from school
to uni. I’ll also attach something from Oxford uni.

This is what Oxford think.

When I said there's more leeway with missed offers, what I meant was:
Uni offers AAA or 38 points including 6 in all HL and SL subjects
They're going to take the IBer who gets 3 x 6 in HL but gets 655 in SL over the A leveller who gets AAB.
That's in no way discriminatory against A level or Btec. It's just a reflection of the fact that the offers for IB can be very multifaceted and some ways of missing an offer are more serious than others. Doesn't help if the uni can fill their places with people who met every aspect of the offer though, obviously.

My DD is doing IB, she is strong in STEM but continuing with English and a humanity which with A levels she would have dropped, keeps her horizons broadened. It is a lot of work but a good school will stagger it and she’s had to learn to be super organised, which will also help with the transition to university.

The IB is also aligned with European qualifications, such as the French Bac, Italian Maturità and German Arbitur where a broad range of subjects is studied to the end of your school career, leading to more well rounded students IMO.

I did A levels but had the IB been available I’d probably have opted for that, I found it hard having to give up maths and other subjects I loved in order to whittle it down to just 3. I do find the U.K. curriculum makes students specialise ridiculously early, I know that I made a few dubious choices at 14/16 that a wider qualification would have perhaps tempered. It’s fine if you already have a clear career path in mind, but for those students with no idea of what they want to study at uni continuing with more subjects can only be an advantage.

It’s not an advantage if you are not bright enough. Doing less will always give better results. If everyone did IB lots of universities would be empty. It doesn’t really suit linguists. It suits very clever people and that’s why ordinary schools don’t do it. Too few would make a success of it. HE in other countries isn’t the same as HE here.

The IB is awesome.

.....but I would be VERY wary of a school implementing it with a whole load of teachers who haven't taught it before. That basically means every teacher is inexperienced. The syllabi are much vaguer than A-levels and, in my experience (I have an MEd in International Education), rely on 'vibes'. I do think the programme is brilliant- better than A-levels, actually. But the staff won't really know what they're doing until they've taken a cohort through.

Sigh. Please ignore my post. I'm an idiot. They're already teaching it!

(Still interesting logistically, mind. Sounds like a teaching nightmare)

Just curious as to why it wouldn’t suit linguists? I was a linguist who would have preferred the option of continuing with sciences/maths for example. A couple of DD’s friends are specialising in languages for their IB, with 2 or more languages at HL, no issues there with managing the programme.

I don’t see the IB being specifically for “clever” people but it does tend to suit all rounders more and yes it can be harder in terms of workload management, so a lot more self discipline is required earlier on. I know DD struggled initially in the transition from GCSE to IB, but she got to grips with it in the end and is now more organised. This will hopefully stand her in good stead for her first years at university.

My younger brother did the IB. He is super clever (went on to get a First from Cambridge and got a full academic scholarship to Harvard) but he actually found the IB hard work. He said it was much harder than A-levels (that some of his friends did).

With two languages at A level, you have time to explore all sorts of additional topics. As long as the other subject is an essay subject, it’s not necessary to do stem. If you do
mfl at university stem isn’t valued. Doing 3 subjects, of which two are languages, also gives Dc a chance against native speakers which is a huge issue regarding grades and being at university. There’s just more time for the subject.

What is the point of average Dc doing IB? They will struggle with workload and content. It makes no sense. High calibre all rounders, yes. People who need to play to their strengths, no.