Independent secondary school - grotty and not up to date. AIBU?

[IndiQ]

Forgive me - from a totally state background and willing to make some sacrifices to send DC to whichever school we think suits best.

Went to an open day at an £18k/year day school recently.

The results are great and the head's speech had us very impressed.

But on touring the school we were all disappointed.

Everywhere smelled fusty and seemed old and grubby.

This was a school in a busy city and is old. But so are the local state schools.

Were we wrong to be disappointed that this is part of why we're judging it to be a big no? I'd be expecting some of the fees to keep the place clean and nicely decorated and labs and other practical subjects up to date?

We really love another independent school with similar fees which is very much as I'd hope.

But then I worry maybe I've been taken in by it's looks - although kids happy and results also great.

I know MN has a lot of private school parents. What are your expectations of the school buildings and classrooms?

£18k is relatively low compared to many independent schools, so perhaps they have been struggling to fill their places, and the buildings are neglected because they can't afford to upgrade them.

Many independent schools struggle financially and are in danger of closing. If you were a good teacher, who could work anywhere, would you want to work there? If not, it may tell you something about the quality of teaching you can expect.

Why not name the school to get opinions? My experience is well run schools manage capital budgets so school infrastructure is constantly updated, usually over long holidays. If nothing has been done in years I would question the financial stability.

The main benefit of paying* is that you get to choose where to apply. We visited a handful of schools and chose the one we fell in love with - a combination of locality, welcoming staff, perfect infrastructure, light streaming into rooms, space, altogether a clear indication that being there would be fun and challenging and horizon stretching. On top of everything we already knew about academic record, ethos and reputation.

In short, if that particular school doesn’t make your heart sing, forget it. Do visit as many relevant places as you can, though - the comparisons can be revelatory.

*Or being in a position where a large bursary is likely.

Check out the school on the charity commission page register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search

you will see how much they have coming in and how much going out. Very good way to see how financially healthy a school is

My DC is in a private school. The lovely facilities is one of the reasons we are happy to pay for it. We get brochures with the school accounts, it details work done in the last period and future plans for maintenance and development. Do they have something similar where you can see if you are happy with what will be happening?

I would not be happy paying for poor facilities.

If it looks dilapidated the main concern is that it'll go bankrupt while your child is in an exam or immediately pre exam year, and close. I'd follow the advice above and check out the finances.

I went to a private school. It was a common gripe that loads of money got spent on the "visible" areas of the school - the bits that were shown to prospective parents and that money was not spent in other areas (ones that would directly benefit students at the school).

So looking dilapidated might be a positive :)

Concerns about the school's viability and finances are absolutely valid. But on the flip side, when you go to an open day, you are not seeing a school in action. In the absence of lessons and teachers and children going about their daily routine, it is easy to focus on what you can see - the buildings - and not on the other aspects of the school that would make it a good fit for your child. The things that seem to be making the difference to my DD are pace, an innovative curriculum, really engaging teaching and a reasonable peer group. Those are harder to see at an open day.

Maybe it's my daughter's school you visited on the recent open day 😂

She was at a different private secondary school previously - one with amazing grounds and new facilities but she didn't like the school and was discussing with other kids from the school how their school's glossy facade is so deceiving. She changed to a school with a more tired exterior and less impressive grounds, but the kids absolutely love their school. The school spends money on providing a very broad curriculum, great food in the cafeteria, nice teachers and a huge variety of clubs and school trips. Not all that glitters and all that...

Plus, you also need to think about whether the great facilities that the school offers will actually benefit your child. My daughter's previous school was I believe the no.1 school for football and had incredible fields, but my daughter doesn't play football and the sport she does to a high level she does outside of school.

My DS and DD are at two different schools both charging those fees. In both there has been recent developments and money clearly invested in the buildings - mostly communal areas. However, both also have ‘fusty’ areas as they are Victorian buildings and it’s hard to maintain the upkeep I guess - they have nice areas and not so nice areas - mainly in old original buildings, but both very happy schools with happy kids and great opportunities. If you ask about the specific school you saw, someone will definitely know it and be able to advise.

I wouldn't focus overly on the buildings/grounds - as long as there aren't parts that are completely rundown (a bit old and tired is not the same) then focus on results, the teachers, the kids - those things make the real difference.

I wonder if it’s the same one we also visited this weekend? 😂 In our case we couldn’t quite see where the money was going - the facilities were no better than an average state secondary, and in some cases worse. There also wasn’t much evidence of fantastic teaching, either (both DP and I work in the education sector and are very attuned to this). There was an atmosphere of nervy anxiety that really put both us and DD off - the kids were unsmiling and it was all a bit chaotic.

Given that this school advertises itself as extremely selective and very academic, it made me think they get those results via a culture of heavy selection and drilling, not inspirational teaching. And yes, I think if you’re paying nearly 20k a year you want to see a bit of care in the buildings - not stained carpets, mouldy visitors’ loos and manky astroturf!

I think a bit of evidence of wear and tear is a good thing - I would much rather the school spent money on excellent staff and teaching rather than on buildings. I find all the talk of amazing new buildings makes me think more about the disruption of building work and whether it’s worth it, rather than about how great they’ll be for my DC.

I do think that some facilities matter - for a keen swimmer its clearly a bonus to have a school pool, similarly with a keen musician and making sure there are enough performance and practice spaces. But in general, a bit of paintwork that needs touching up or a slightly grotty area don’t put me off at all.

My super selective private secondary school had some dilapidated parts. They spent most of the money on teachers salaries, a new theatre, educational trips and regularly updating textbooks which we didn't need to buy ourselves. It was a truly excellent school with brilliant results.

Peeling paintwork and wooden desks don't affect teaching/learning.

Ooh I wonder.

Although actually don't think the one we visited has any Astro.

Very academically pushy. They get great results but even though DD is very bright I'm not desperate for her to go to Oxbridge unless that's what she decides it's what she wants. And feel maybe that attitude would butt heads a little with what the school want.

Classrooms less welcoming than any state ones we've seen. Books in the library all old and tatty etc and even the newer sections of school had a bad smell.

Canteen very lacklustre and apparently most students bring in their own food anyway.

Sounds very similar if not the exact same! (What city are you in, if you don’t mind me asking?) The school we saw is super pushy too, but there didn’t seem to be much of an atmosphere of happy kids and a school proud of their work — instead, small bare classrooms and slightly jittery-looking girls showing people around. The teachers didn’t seem particularly good at connecting with the kids either.

Similarly to you, our DD is very bright but I would prefer her to have a happy school experience in a less academically pushy environment, than be unhappy in a school which hothouses for superlative results. Also the sixth form girl who gave a speech to parents was utterly terrifying! DD described her as “like Ethel Hallow from The Worst Witch” 😂

Will DM you.

You do need to be careful when comparing schools based on open days though.

We went to two similar schools recently. On one open day we were given a pre set tour - all the guides had been given a (laminated!) route to follow, very clearly focusing on the recently built parts of the school. We didn’t see any of the old bits. On another we were asked “what would you like to see” and nothing was off limits. Including eg the fairly elderly science labs.

Obviously, the first school has old and tatty bits, but we deliberately weren’t shown them. I’m not sure that’s a great message about the school tbh.

@minipie I think the laminated sheets is my daughter’s school - she’s a guide and we also saw the laminated sheets last year when we visited. I just asked her and she said the tour goes to every building but they have routes on the sheet to stop everyone being in the same place at the same time - so it just gives the order to go everywhere - that might not be about avoiding spaces, just to organise it a bit!

This was at WHS… I’m sure we didn’t see the whole school as we saw almost nowhere that wasn’t brand new! But yes it could be about crowd management, maybe I’m being too cynical!

Was it In the South?

DD is at WHS- most of it is quite new now- they've been building for years! I think to be fair it was probably down to crowd management- it's not a big site and would be chaos if everyone could just wander where they wanted to! They are given no 'prep' when they tour in terms of answers to give etc.
Tours are a bit of a nightmare- I ended up seeing most schools at least 3 times as depended so much on who took you round ( or which other parents were in your group..)

@minipie not WHS. our DD is Sutton high

Hmm we looked round Sutton too, maybe I am getting confused! They are all starting to merge into one…

I think facilities are a red herring, it is about the teaching, and the getting the best most inspirational staff and quality of work, look at the kids books and you'll get a better idea.