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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Mixed Ability Classes

30 replies

thismeansnothing · 01/10/2022 11:10

Were in the process of applying for secondary schools for my eldest. Were in an area I didn't grow up in, don't have any friends with kids in the local high schools so we are looking around as it's all new to us.

Our main concern is 2 of the 3 we have seen have mixed ability classes for English, maths and science. This isn't what me and DH are familiar with as we were set for everything at our schools. One school have done this for 5 years now so have a cohort who have done it all the way through and have some exam results for it. The other school have brought it in in the last 3 years.

At DDs primary there have been mixed year groups and this caused some issues. I'm not saying DD is a child genius by any stretch but she is bright and I feel at primary it's held her back a bit. In that she'll finish her work and it's been a case of read a book. Or pairing her up with someone whos struggling and getting them to work together and her re-explaining. And I don't want the same at secondary. After speaking to staff I'm dubious to see how this works in reality. How can a class of say 30 get the most out of a 50 minute lesson when there's such a range of abilities?

I have been slightly convinced to see how it may work in English. As it's a bit more abstract and ideas based and it's how you then get that down on paper. But something more skill based like maths and science I'm scepticle.

Me and DH have looked at the progress 8 score for the school that have done a cohort in this set up and it looks like it bebefits those that are in the middle ability wise. Where as high and low achievers seem to regress by the time they leave.

So what I want to know is is this the norm now? Has any mumsnetters kids gone through high school and with this set up and has it worked?

Got to say both these schools are quite small (400/500) pupils so maybe not the capacity to have mixed abilities for timetable reasons. Who knows.

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 01/10/2022 11:14

I would be very dubious about a school which was fully mixed ability for maths at least after Y7. Science I would expect to be set at least for GCSE if not before, for foundation/higher and single science options.

English doesn't have foundation/higher papers so at least they'd all be working towards the same exam.

sheepdogdelight · 01/10/2022 11:29

My DC's school is taught mixed ability for everything apart from maths. In KS4 science is "sort of " set in that most of the able scientists tend to take triple science, and they do take out a "top" set of those taking combined science (which generally roughly equates to all the combined science students who will sit the higher papers). They don't really advertise this though - so it might be that your school does something similar?

We've found it works well - it does need good teachers to be on top of the ability range and managing to set work at all levels, but my children have generally done well - I think they would both have done badly in a setted school for different reasons (DS because he has a patchy profile so any set would probably be "wrong"; DD because she is generally able but puts too much pressure on herself).

When we were looking at schools we also looked at another school that setted in every subject from day 1. The two schools took in broadly equivalent intakes. Their results were virtually identical.

In a school of only 400/500 (so about 100 a year?) there would still be quite a wide range of ability in a class even if they did set.

Nik2015 · 01/10/2022 11:31

They don’t work, someone gets left behind as the ability range can be massive.

AllThatHoopla · 01/10/2022 11:33

My DD's is mixed ability for English.

It's very hard to teach a class if nobody is generating any thoughts or ideas. You need those children with something to say.

Disneyblueeyes · 01/10/2022 11:36

I think it's fine for English, not for maths.

Even though I'm primary, I've taught mixed age and mixed ability for years and it's a nightmare teaching maths. You literally can't support every ability without spending hours and hours of your own time planning for every ability.

PeekAtYou · 01/10/2022 11:37

Is it mixed ability all the way through? I would expect sets from y8 at least. Maths and Science GCSEs have Foundation and Higher tiers as well as able students having the choice to do Further Maths or Triple Science at our comp. The curriculum is different for these groups of pupils.

My experience is that kids studied GCSE English texts depending on what set they were in as presumably the high achievers can cope with harder texts. I've also heard on here that top and bottom sets in maths can means 5+ years in difference in understanding.

TizerorFizz · 01/10/2022 15:07

I’m very dubious about it being ok for English. Some DC are slower readers at 11 and don’t write much either. The brighter Dc are ready to do so much more. Other subjects are not necessarily set but might be before gcse. Maths should be in sets too. Higher ability Dc must be catered for too. Not just the GCSE 4/5 level Dc on whom the school will be judged! The 8/9 pupils need help too.

Original poster

thismeansnothing · 05/10/2022 23:24

Thanks for all your responses. You have on the whole pretty much confirmed what me and dh have thought and felt.

The school that have brought mixed ability groups in the past couple of years - maths is mixed from year 7 all the way through as they only need to confirm quite late in the school year what paper they would sit for their GCSE. English was mixed for all 5 years. Science they have the option of triple science as an option so that naturally attracts those with a higher ability anyway otherwise it's all mixed for the double award.

Went to see out last and final school option yesterday where they set for English maths and science based on SAT scores, then theres a bit of movement by half term if needed. This has kind of sold it for us. Typically this is the school that's further away but I feel it's an important factor.

Thanks again :)

OP posts:

TizerorFizz · 06/10/2022 00:56

@thismeansnothing
What does value added look like at the different schools? Assuming your Dc is in the higher achieving group, do these Dc have a strongly positive VA in all schools? That could indicate one system works better than another. It could be the school that doesn’t set also doesn’t have many high achievers? What do the profiles look like? I would delve into high achieving numbers, background of Dc and sats profiles as well as setting. Not to mention university destinations!

pookypup · 06/10/2022 06:54

it’s really interesting reading the comments on here about this subject. I teach at a secondary school which teaches practically all mixed ability (a small nurture group for children with very low prior attainment) and we have the best results in the county. Progress 8 is very high for students of all starting points.

As a pp said, with teachers who have been trained to teach effectively with this approach, it absolutely can work well.

TizerorFizz · 06/10/2022 08:31

@pookypup That’s interesting but great teaching is what matters. Not all schools have that. Unfortunately. Also in my grammar county, the best progress 8 scores are at some of the grammar schools! Plus a CofE selective secondary. So there’s lots of elements which lead to great progress 8. Mixed ability could be one but it might be the total opposite.

sheepdogdelight · 06/10/2022 08:51

TizerorFizz · 06/10/2022 08:31

Higher ability children tend to have higher Progress 8 scores (regardless of school). Also see ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/2016/09/progress-8-is-too-favourable-to-grammar-schools-and-understates-secondary-modern-achievement/

MagnaQuestion · 06/10/2022 08:57

Yup mixed ability here too (apart from the grammar which is basically top half of top set anyway!) It's making me a little anxious as it's what she hoped to get away from at primary and actually get into learning new topics. It must be okay or they wouldn't do it....

(Off point but they sound like very small secondaries!)

Areyouactuallyserious · 06/10/2022 09:06

I was at open evenings recently and at one school was told they removed sets during covid as it unfairly disadvantaged children who hadn’t had the same access to education during lockdown- fair enough.
they said they kept it in all
subjects except maths, because they felt the top set of children were getting complacent as they were the top set… but also some putting too much pressure on themselves… not sure how both can be true, sounded dodgy.
at end of day mixed ability typically results in small advantage for kids at lower end of range, and small disadvantage for kids at top of range so I wonder are some schools deciding to take the hit with the top kids who are so bright already, to bring along those who need more help?

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 06/10/2022 09:16

Our local comp teaches all classes as mixed ability, except for maths and computer science. Results are not the best in the area but I don't think that's the mixed ability classes. The school said that mixed ability removes the stigma of the bottom sets and keeps behaviour at a more consistent level, as the lower ability classes aren't full of disruptive children.

Karamna · 06/10/2022 09:25

I'm an English teacher. I don't think mixed ability classes are a good idea. It affects your choice of texts and your progression through the material.

If you are studying a class novel then you have to select one that the whole class can access, to some extent. The brighter students would have been better studying a more complex text (vocabulary, structure, themes) but it was impossible when I had some students in the class with literacy levels expected in primary 4.

In later years they were streamed and it worked much better. I think it was better for the lower ability students too because instead of studying Shakespeare, for example, you were able to choose a text that would be more engaging for them and get better results.

Karamna · 06/10/2022 10:11

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 06/10/2022 09:16

That just means all the classes are being disrupted then. I wouldn't be happy with that.

Meadowbreeze · 06/10/2022 11:23

I don't think mixed ability classes work, sorry. I say this as someone with a very dyslexic DD who is unlikely to pass any GCSEs. She was accidentally put into top set English last year and I thought she was going to have a breakdown. I don't see how mixing kids like her and high ability would make anyone happy. Smart kids get bored, lower ability get overwhelmed.
Her school sets from summer term of Y7 and she was so much happier once that happened, as were her very clever friends. Whilst sets were mixed I felt the expectations on her were lower so as to not overwhelm her. Her clever friends were given extension tasks but they often got stuck on them.
I don't think it's got anything to do with quality of teachers either, they've been excellent for the most part. We have a mix of schools who do both formats and the schools with sets see much better progress for the lower and higher attainers than the ones that don't set.

Meadowbreeze · 06/10/2022 11:30

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants That's just lazy behaviour and probably SEN management. It's not the clever kids job to control the class. A disruptive child being forced to work at a level not appropriate for them, will get even more disruptive. My DD has been in the lowest sets since summer of Y7. The school has a large SEN population but her classes are 10 kids or less and there's a TA in them for the most disruptive. I'm not saying there's no disruption but the kids are working at their level and can actually complete the work and ask questions they'd be embarrassed to ask in a mixed class. As for stigma, well there's always going to be stigma. I speak to my DD a lot about this and it's better they learn how to deal with it whilst they're at school than be sheltered from it and it slap them in the face when they leave. Instilling confidence in the abilities they do have, instead of being forced to sit in a class ful of kids way smarter than them, is probably one way of achieving that. It's by no means perfect, and I can't speak for the other sets, but the expectation on her are high and she's reaching her potential even if that will be a 3 or 4 at GCSE instead of a 6 or 9.

NanaHanna · 06/10/2022 11:38

This is great news for the majority of children! and your dc will do just fine.

In the end your dd will sit GCSEs and A-levels, and if your she is as bright as you say she is, she'll do great and the majority of middle of the road kids will also do great. Sounds like an amazing school. And if your dd has siblings, they may not be as high achieving as their ds so you cater for all kids.

However, if you feel this is not academic enough for your dd, how about going to a selective private or grammar, would this be an option?

Anjelika · 06/10/2022 11:50

All very interesting to read. When DS1 (now in Y11) went to secondary they set only in Maths. When my younger children started at the same school a few years later they had stopped setting for Maths though we have not been officially told. Oddly (to me) the one subject they do set in is PE!

It's a very desirable and oversubscribed school with the best results locally. I think setting in Maths would benefit my younger two though. One is really good at Maths and the other struggles a little bit.

TizerorFizz · 06/10/2022 15:30

It’s always interesting that everyone accepts sports teams are selected on the basis of ability, as would be the case with the school orchestra and those in drama productions, but schools worry about not setting for maths and English. The main thing is that DC are valued for their contribution, whatever that might be.

sheepdogdelight · 06/10/2022 16:33

TizerorFizz · 06/10/2022 15:30

Our school orchestra accepts anyone and the drama productions will find a role for everyone that is interested (yes, it might be a small part or back stage).
Granted the sports teams are chosen on ability, but anyone can come to the practices and potentially be picked.

I think the same thing about showing children that they have the chance to progress regardless of ability holds true.

Original poster

thismeansnothing · 06/10/2022 16:43

@MaMagnaQuestion yup alot smaller than what I'm used to. My secondary was 1000, my husband's was 2000. All three we've looked at for DD have been very small.

OP posts:

SunflowerOrange · 06/10/2022 16:44

Pretty sure even our grammar school main orchestra accepts anyone (there's also a "senior" orchestra) and the local comps have bands/orchestras for anyone. Similarly drama will find something for most people.

Also orchestra and drama are opt in clubs whereas Maths and English are part of the school day.

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