Teachers, is this behavior normal in your school?

[CheekyBuggersIsPuttingItPolitely]

My DC have attended the same secondary school.

All three have been shocked by the behavior of their peers. Fighting in hallways, smoking in toilets, children walking out of lessons, laughing in the faces of teachers and general disruptive behavior.

My older two have coped well with the disruption, with Dd1 getting great GCSE results, she has however decided to take A Levels elsewhere.

My youngest however is finding it hard, she gets very stressed when people misbehave and is complaining she hasn't actually learnt anything yet in her first weeks at school as the teachers are having to spend the whole lesson disciplining children.

Do you think this is the norm, or are my children at a particularly challenging school?

Two of my friend's daughters are at a grammar school. They describe the behaviour of many of their classmates as 'feral'. Grammar schools aren't the magic bullet some of you seem to think. They still need decent SLTs and behaviour management policies.

@MillicentMargaretAmandaThat’s exactly it. SLT and working with parents. My Dsis thought it was funny when her DS was excluded for persistent disruption and answering back. She’s a middle aged mum with a good degree. She has low standards though. DC rule. They must be happy at a times. This is part of the problem. Dc are emboldened by lax parenting. It’s too difficult to ensure DC do what is expected of them. So they don’t do homework. They answer back. They are no doubt seen by their schools as thundering nuisances. SLT need to get a grip with these types of Dc and their parents. At the moment DC are supported by parents and the teachers are wrong.

I think there’s a huge argument for getting parents and schools to jointly write behaviour policies. And parents to uphold agreed standards. It shouldn’t be draconian but it should show respect to teachers and parents should respect the policy. All need ownership
of if to make learning a better experience.

Grammar schools are beside the point. Comps set and have grammar stream Dc in them. It’s management that matters and getting parental support.

Absolutely agreed @TizerorFizz. I went to a grammar in a wealthy town. The catchment area was wide and took in more disadvantaged surrounding areas. Behaviour was generally ok but when it wasn't, 99% of the time it was not the kids from the 'poorer' areas, it was the most local kids who even back then were being brought up with a huge sense of entitlement. For example they were responsible for most of the vandalism in school as whenever they broke anything at home mummy and daddy would just given them a replacement. There were no.consequences. Of course wealth is by no means a determiner in the raising entitled little brats but in my case it was a factor. I think parents whose kids act up in class need to spend a day observing those classes to see the impact that their kids behaviour truly has. I would hope (likely naively!) that that may help them be more supportive of the school and teachers.

Well wealth certainly does not come into the example I gave above. More boho laid back. Most of the worst behaviour and schools with challenging DC are in pockets of deprivation in this country I believe. I don’t think it’s widespread . Where schools cannot get high quality SLT, it’s worse. COVID made a huge impact. I think it’s been under estimated. DC didn’t work at home and now find school challenging.

@TizerorFizz The worst behaviour I have ever seen during my school life and work life was during my time at a top boarding school. Drugs, bullying, sexual abuse (staff and peers) racism. When you have two house parents to forty children, the adult input is very minimal. Also there was so much money and access to drugs - because of course dealers target the wealthy schools. My DP was at Eton and the dealers would hang out in the streets surrounding the school - you would, wouldn't you!

@Burpeea
You obviously are not aware of county lines and drugs for the masses then! Most schools have some issues with drugs. My DDs boarded and I don’t recognise any of what you say. In fact they didn’t encounter drugs at school at all. But not all schools are the same. The most they ever saw was a few Dc having a smoke in the bushes! Bullying and improper behaviour didn’t happen. However it’s up
to SLT to deal with such issues. Our DDs had very limited access to money.

@TizerorFizz I am literally laughing out loud at your assertion that because your own children say they didn't see any drug taking at their school there wasn't any.
Of course I am aware of country lines. I am talking about my own experience as I indicated. What I saw at my boarding school and heard about at Eton through DP was hair raising for someone like me who came from a very sheltered background.

County

My DD is generally well behaved and willing to learn, but failed the 11+ and has plenty of her friends that are the same. Do they deserve to sit in disruptive classes because they’re less able academically?
The Grammar system is all well and good if your kid passes, but often worse if they don’t.

@Burpeea
But you really have no experience of anywhere else! Drugs in poor communities does so much damage. So does alcohol and smoking. You can laugh all you want but it’s the poorest communities that suffer the most. Not Eton boys. Nor my DDs and their friends. You need a reality check!

No DC should expect to be with badly behaved DC where school SLT turn a blind eye or are ineffective. I believe working with parents is the best way forward and getting them onside. I also believe most DC are decent and so are their parents.

@TizerorFizz I have worked with children in really struggling families and I run practical courses for children excluded from secondary schools, hired by several councils.
So yes, I know all about deprivation. I also know about the drug addictions and access to drugs of the very rich. Both terrify me.

Except the very rich are a tiny proportion of society. Nowhere near as many as deprived people. So the cost to society is where poor people steal to feed the habit.

@TizerorFizz I repeat - all types of drug abuse terrify me. Drugs can shatter the lives of the very poor, the very rich and everyone in between.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/middle-class-drugs-olivia-liverpool-28091806

Speaking from personal experience, I do so agree with @TizerorFizz regarding the importance of the SLT and its relationship with parents. Youngest DC went to a secondary modern which had been very poor a few years earlier – a dynamic new HT introduced a raft of measures and then empowered her SLT to back them (and removed those who didn't buy into her changes). Wind forward to now and the school is over-subscribed and large numbers are staying on to do A levels where a decade ago they didn't even offer science A levels.

@thing47
Absolutely imperative in my view. I think children who want to learn (could be art, drama, sport etc) should be able to do it free from interference. I’m always bemused as to why heads and SLT (and governors) are not aware of the need to ensure they can.

I teach in a deprived inner city comp with low literacy levels and a ratio of about 100:1 HMP entrance to Russel Group uni entrance. I am an experienced teacher with an LT that generally backs the teacher and all my lessons are productive, silent (where appropriate) and enjoyable. Kids often thank me for the lesson. This only happens because I am extremely experienced and the LT back me up. Low pay will drive good teachers out because it is very hard work to establish and maintain discipline in a classroom and there is no way I would sign up for this for the next 40 years of my life. Therefore, most comprehensive pupils will probably endure lessons disrupted by a minority of pupils that are not effectively dealt with.

@BBCK
So quality teaching and high quality SLT! Problem solved! Other jobs can be stressful too! Heads do earn a lot. It’s a career with prospects.

Grammar schools are not the answer. What about the kids who don't get into Grammar schools? We need smaller class sizes. The difference between trying to teach a class of 30 versus a class of 15 is huge. This requires more funding though which is why the obvious solution is always ignored by governments.

There's a reason why private schools don't have more than 15 pupils in a class. The atmosphere of a class completely changes once you only have 15 pupils or fewer. It is virtually impossible to manage behaviour effectively with 30 + kids in a class.

@OldWivesTale
When staffing is 80% of budgets how can you halve class sizes? It’s impossible. A budget of £5 million would need to be £9 million. Where are the teachers coming from? Never mind the money!

Schools with excessive bad behaviour need to consider how they will improve this. They need to prioritise this and train staff effectively. Of course schools need to recognise the issue in the first place. Drawing up plans and policies and then ensure continual checking of effectiveness is vital.

Interestingly the data does not support the belief that smaller class sizes are decisive. The most important factor in a child's success is the quality of the teaching – research shows that DCs do better in a large class with a really good teacher than they do in a small class with a weak teacher.

So in fact the best use of funding would be to put it into providing the support and resources needed to help teachers teach better. A large part of that is the backing of a great HT and SLT, though there are other factors too.

@thing47 That is absolutely correct. High quality teaching is what SLT should aim for.

Agree

I'm.appalled to hear that grammat schools are the answer. What about the pupils who woukd not qualify for grammar school but want to learn? I'm.a teacher and at my school this is not the norm. The level of disruption is increasing though. I'm all for removing disruptive elements asap. Once this happens most pupils will cooperate.

My DDs used to give similar reports about their secondary school. DD1 has now gone to six form college and DD2 has changed to a studio school. DD2 says it's totally different there.
The school is only for Y10 to Y13 so obviously older students and it's more like college in it's approach which is possibly why there is virtually no disruptive behaviour and a mutual respect between students and teachers.
I used to feel incredibly sorry for the teachers at DDs old school. When my DDs used to tell me some of the things that happened I thought how utterly soul destroying it must be to work there and how it's no wonder there is a teacher shortage!