If you were me, which of these schools would you put as your first choice?

[GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal]

DD is in Y6, so we're about to start applying for her secondary school place. We have a reasonably good chance of getting either of the following schools:

School A: mixed comprehensive. Rated Good by Ofsted in 2018. Considered, both locally and by the CEO of an organisation called "inclusion expert" to give the most outstanding pastoral care and support to its students. The entire school ethos seems to be focused on getting the best from each individual child, in a supportive and creative way.

However, Whilst situated in what would be considered an affluent area it is on the edge of a super output area with high levels of deprivation and poverty, including one ward which is in the top 25% for low income and crime, so the starting point for a lot of these kids makes this a challenging aim. Also, their exam results really aren't great - below average not just for the area, but for England. The impression I got when I attended the open evening last year was that this is at least in part because the school's focus is on well-being over academic achievement. I really loved it at the time, it just had a warm and welcoming atmosphere, and the Head seemed like an incredible women. Inspired and driven.

School B: Outstanding single sex girls comprehensive. 56% of pupils achieved grades 9-7 in last year's GCSEs. Pastorally, it's considered good. Very popular with local parents, and I've heard nothing bad about it. I couldn't attend their open evening last year as it got cancelled by Health England so haven't had the chance to form my own opinion yet.

We're going to attend open evenings and working day visits at both, which will hopefully help us decide, because at the moment I keep going back and forth between "my main priority for DD is her health and well-being, and school A will prioritise that", and "but the whole reason for going to school is to get decent exam results, and school B will give her the best chance of that."

Other schools in the area we either have no chance of getting or have similar exam results to school A but without the outstanding pastoral care.

As for DD herself, she's autistic and extremely bright and academic. No learning difficulties but does very much struggle socially and with anxiety, hence pastoral care and a supportive environment being such a priority. She's a loner, but does tend to prefer boys to girls, and isn't keen on a single sex school. A lot of other girls from her primary school will go to school B; hardly any, if any at all will go to school A (there's a lot of snobbery about it, some parents recoiled in horror when I mentioned I was considering it!) DD regards not knowing anyone as a positive - I get the impression she's rather hoping to reinvent herself at secondary.

Finally, I have mixed feelings about single sex education. I know a lot of research says it's better for girls, but I went to an all girls school and had a truly awful time, my life was made miserable by other girls. DD is not me, though, so I'm trying not to let that cloud my viewpoint! She has a younger brother, so it would certainly be easier to have them both at the same school.

Well done if you got through that essay! I'd really love to hear from other parents who've made a similar choice, or from teachers with some expertise to share. Thanks!

Have you spoken to the SENCOs at the two schools? I would speak to them both and ask them how they would support your daughter both pastorally and academically. It doesn't sound from what you've said that School B has a bad reputation pastorally. So I think I'd want to delve a bit deeper into what they do offer and whether that's going to suit you.

It is possible for a school to be both academically good and offer the pastoral side. If School B balances them well I'd probably go for that.

Just wanted to say I could have written your message word for word! I am actually wondering if we live in the same town... will be watching your replies with interest.

We're in Hertfordshire, @musicmum75?

Same. N Herts by any chance?

Like a previous poster my autistic DD went to the equivalent of school B and it was a complete disaster, she left at the beginning of year 8.

It is universally acknowledged that the teenage years and secondary school are particularly difficult for autistic girls and I would prioritise inclusion, mental health, friendships over everything else.

There is no point sending her to an academic pressure cooker type school if she becomes so anxious she can no longer attend ANY school, and ends up with no GCSEs at all.

I will also add that girls schools seem to be less experienced with autistic children, as fewer girls are diagnosed, at least not until later teen years. Mixed schools seem to do better on this front.

Also I would check how strict the schools are. My DDs high achieving girls school was very strict (think detentions for very minor infringements) and she became so terrified of getting something wrong that her anxiety spiralled. Not all schools are great at reasonable adjustments 😔

No, @musicmum75 , other end. Interesting that there's two such similar "pairs" of schools!

Autism and grammar school can be an appalling mix. I know that's not the situation here but I wonder if School B has overtones of that.

I would be talking to Sencos. Find out where anxious children go at lunch and break and how autistic children are supported to develop social skills. Also find out how much they set and stream, because that could have a massive impact on how she experiences School 1.

The girls school is a former grammar, I think.

Also I take progress 8 scores with a bit of a pinch of salt, because you can almost predict them round here based on how middle class the intake is. They are meant to be a leveller but in practice I do think schools taking from more deprived areas are disadvantaged.

I am more interested in how well their most academic kids do. If some of them do really well, then your child can too. But, crucially, only if their mental health stays good enough for them to stay in school and sit their exams. We have learned the hard way not to take that for granted.

I'm really pleased so many people have taken the time to read and respond, it's so helpful and really means a lot.

I've been pootling about on both schools websites, and I've found school A "fast tracks" the more academically able Y7 students:

"Our Fast Track course is designed to stretch the more able. There is a Fast Track group in English, Mathematics and Science. Students on our Fast Track curriculum are also invited to take part in our Latin Club where students learn about Ancient Rome and Greece (Classics) and take modules from the Cambridge Latin course. "

That sounds quite positive, I think? DD is fascinated by Ancient Greece and Rome.

I also read the report from the inclusion assessment they had done in 2019, and it's absolutely glowing. Said the school was "a shining example of outstanding practices."

If your daughter is "extremely bright and academic", I would look not so much at the progress 8/ attainment 8 scores, but at the actual results and the number of top grades in core subjects. If you can see that they are getting a decent number of top grades in the core subjects (option subjects will vary according to which children choose them), then your daughter is likely to do likewise. It might be a low percentage that are getting those grades, but they are not prevented from doing so by the overall academic profile.
If there are very few top grades, that doesn't necessarily mean the teaching isn't good enough, but it might mean your daughter would struggle to find like-minded peers.

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal in your OP you mention that your daughter isn't keen on a single sex school school and seems to prefer hanging around with boys rather than girls. That alone would make me nervous about her going to an all-girls school.

I was going to pick up on the boys thing. Where are the boys from her primary going? Is there a third choice?

I would have said B until you said she prefers the company of boys! Is that likely to continue through the teenage years though...

Subject to that, if you like them both well, I'd be guided by her. At least she will feel listened to.

I'd choose B in a heartbeat but then I read that your dd gets on better with boys than girls, so on that basis, I'd go for A

I am going against the grain here but would definitely choose A. If most of the academic girls are being peeled off to school B, then of course the academic results will be below national average. Do they even account for the boy heavy intake when they calculate progress score?

I have an autistic DD and I really feel that she struggles most in a homogenous environment, where she is likely to stand out more. If she's surrounded by academic girls, she will start to see herself as the odd one. If she's surrounded by all sorts of people, she'll see herself as an academic girl.

Of course, all ASD children are different, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick A.

Your sense of self develops in high school along with your grades. It sounds as if you are weighing up straight As and low self esteem with the risk of a single B and a more secure child.

B without a doubt for a bright ASD girl. If B doesn't work out she will always get a place at A.

There are pros and cons to the Fast tracking approach but it sounds like it could be a great fit in this case.

It's quite hard to swim against the tide when your friends are all keen on school B but your update on school A is positively glowing. Talk to the Sencos though. On paper either school should be able to meet her needs, but the way that is delivered in practice can vary so much.

Also ask how many DC they have with EHCPs. Lots can mean they are better at securing help for children who need it. Also a broad brush perception of need is really important for kids like your DD. Ask them how many academically able children they have with EHCPs, even if you don't think she'll need one. It might give an indication of how tuned in they are to academically able children needing substantial support.

Do they put the children into sets in school A?

I think I might be drawn to B simply because if she hates school B then she would probably still be able to transfer to school A, whereas I'm guessing school B is oversubscribed.

It's so hard to make a decision. They should let pupils do trial weeks at several schools before applications.

My dd sounds very similar to yours - ASD, bright, prefers boys - and she hated the idea of the single sex school so she went to the mixed academy and hated that too. We had years of misery and we ended up taking her out in years 10 and 11 and sending her to a more nurturing, but still academic, private school which she absolutely loved - wish we'd done it sooner - but I appreciate that not everybody has this option.

There's a boys school that a lot of them will be going to. A few will go private - some have already left for prep school. And there's two Outstanding co-ed comps that we're nowhere near but some parents have moved closer to in the last year.

The variety of responses here make it clear this really isn't an easy decision, as there are pro and cons for both. I think I really do have to take DD's opinion into account as a deciding factor. I just worry that hers is not necessarily the most rational viewpoint! She said to me yesterday "I definitely want to go to school A, but it's at least partly out of stubbornness because I know you want me to go to school B." This isn't even true! I wish it was that easy!!

School B, especially if it has a sixth form which i think it will. Have you compared KS 5 results? Was your mum an EA in the same area?

My autistic DD has just completed GCSEs and sounds a lot like yours - academically able but struggles with social anxiety, friendships etc.

Please, for the sake of your daughter, go for the school that has the best pastoral care.

My DD really struggled with school - too loud, too many people, confusing social expectations - but went into year 10 predicted 10 grade 9s. However it just became too much for her, and to cut a (very!) long story short, she ended up on our local council's outreach program being taught at home, and got 4 GCSEs mixed grades.

Your DDs mental health is far more important than grades - she can always retake, or study in later life, so please consider her well-being first.

As a side note, my DD has just started an art diploma at a local college and is loving it, but it has been a rocky road to get here!

My DD wanted to start again, be in a class where nobody knew her and preferred the company/interests of boys. These factors featured heavily in us rejecting a shiny bells and whistles academic school and choosing a school which was smaller and absolutely brilliant at pastoral care. DD is very bright.

She's in y11 now, has a strong and brilliant group of all male friends and just got all 8s and 9s in her mocks. She has blossomed/thrived and it was absolutely the right choice.

We visited 3 schools and we knew from that which way to go. I was torn beforehand but the settings sold themselves in different ways.

Both schools have sixth forms. Haven't compared KS5 results as had assumed by then DD will make her own decision about where to take A Levels.

And no, mum was an EA at a completely different LEA, and retired over a decade ago. She'd be in the first to admit that her expert opinion is not terribly up-to-date.

My DD has just left a school A with a great set of GCSEs, so while the academic progress for the whole school cohort isn’t great, it hasn’t held her back. BUT she is on an ASD pathway and found some aspects of the co-Ed environment really difficult: low level (and some major) disruption in class, mixed ability class groups, and ever stricter rules in an attempt to control even minor infringements of behaviour policies. But there were excellent extra curricular options that she enjoyed, so-so pastoral support, and eventually some recognition of her likely ASD characteristics - still awaiting assessment.

Had she had the option of a school B locally she might have had a calmer experience that hadn’t triggered her so badly, but maybe that would have just bumped some of those reactions further down the line.
Keep an open mind - visit both, and see what she thinks.