Ability range in top set year 7 (average secondary school)?

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What kind of ability range (in terms of Sats results) would you expect to see in the top set in year 7 in a average (sometimes slightly below average) secondary school?

That will differ greatly between schools. Even if they are the best in primary it doesn't mean they will be the best in high school. They are no longer the big fish in a little pond.

Depends on many factors.

How big is the school? Is there just one top set, or multiple equal top sets? What is the schools setting policy? (Do they set for individual subjects or across a range). Does the school use SATs as its basis for setting? Or does it use something else?

They don't set just on SATS results. It's likely that they did a really simple maths quiz on transition day which is used too. They'll generally be re-setted by half term anyway as they will likely present differently in class than in SATS.

There's a massive range of skills and abilities in higher sets initially. My last school had 14 maths groups across two halves of the year from really high ability to way below. Give it a few months for them to figure it out.

It depends on the size of the school, surely, and whether they have “joint top” sets or all the sets descending by ability.

A school with 10 classes per year will probably be able to have a very high ability group all together, whereas in a school with 3 classes there is likely to be more of a range.

But at my DC’s school they have 3 mixed higher ability sets, 3 mixed “middle” and one for extra support (though not in Y7, they don’t set them straight away).

Lots of school don't set until half term of Year 7 either (or even later than this) - they take the time to actually get to know the students, not base decisions on a single mark!

School uses sats results to set in english, maths and science, everything else is mixed ability. Not sure how many students, but PAN is 180 and usually only over 100 students apply for this school.

I think it really depends. In my DCs school they only set for Science and PE and there is a very wide range of ability in the top set (multiple top sets, not one top set with all the high achievers). Even for GCSE, setting is either not done or is in v broad bands. This is a deliberate policy to support lower attainers, but obviously it’s a bit frustrating for the high attainers.

Our school doesn’t place in sets immediately for Y7 - around Christmas time they do shift Maths groups around. Our school only do maths sets until y9 when they are split. The lower sets are usually smaller class numbers so they can offer more support.

My DD is in the top set for STEM ... but the year is in three different sections, then a top, middle and lower set in each section. She got 109 in Maths in Yr6. They don't set for the other subjects. The three sections are for timetabling not ability based.

I’d guess 110+ but no real idea. I think about 65% of kids get 100+, but don’t know how the higher scores are distributed, don’t think DfE release the methodology for SATS grading.

110* for maths is the usual cut off.

Y7 will administer their own CAT tests anyway and things may get rejigged anyway.

At DD3's school they use CATs to set the students but they also do the timetabling so that children can move up and down sets as their ability emerges.

There are 3 top sets for maths in years 7-8, then that reduces to 2 top sets for year 9 on. So the bottom 3rd of each 'top set' will become '2nd set' in year 9. They would still be put in for the higher paper, they just wouldn't be pushed quite so hard as the top sets to get the very best grades.

Our school (7 form entry, single sex, comprehensive state school) sets maths in y7 based on SAT scores and primary teacher recommendation.

In my DC's year maths top set cut off seemed to be around 115 anecdotally.

Our intake includes lots of kids who didnt make the cut for a nearby highly competitive state super-selective - they would mostly have bee tutored in maths in Y4-Y6. I'm guessing some will continue to be tutored at secondary too.

So with only just over 100 students you're looking at 4 sets. Bottom set will probably be students who were below 100 at SATS. Top set I wouldn't think was as high as 110 - maybe 106?

My DC goes to a fully comprehensive school (no local state grammars) in an urban area, which gets average results. In YR7 there are two set 1 classes, three set 2s, and 2 set 3s. I have no idea about the other kids' standards, but my dc "only" (by MN standards) got 110 in her maths SATs and is in one of the top sets.

By Y10-11 there is a proper top set where all the kids have a target of grades 7-9.

In a small school there might not even be four hierarchical sets. I taught in a school that size, and there was only enough maths teaching for three teachers. That means you can't teach all four classes at once, so you can't set across all four. So the top set might be top of two.

Alternatively, maths might be timetabled with another subject, so that the top two maths sets run at the same time as the bottom two English/French sets, and vice versa. The problem with that is that everyone has to be upper half for both or lower half for both.

No SATs for my Y9, and fast forwarding to post 2 years of internal half termly exams…
There are 2 equal top sets, so her class has a mix of the top 60 out of 180.
The exams they do are simply on Y7 then Y8 curriculum, nothing stretch. That said, their exam is marked “higher” not “foundation” - but it’s still nothing more than a CGP Y7 (then Y8) book would include.
The exam results in her class range from 50% to 100%. So you can stay in the top third of the year with a 50% result.
That’s in a school with a 60% Maths & English Grade 5 vs National average of 42%.

Now my niece is also top set maths but her school has a 30% pass. I can’t say what their internal tests are, but I put her through some CGP quizzes mid way through Y9. She got 8/10 on Y7s, 5/10 on Y8s - I didn’t do her actual Y9. Yet she was top set.

I think there’s just too many variables to helpfully say. So just - concentrate on your own child, not the class!

Ours has several "top sets" in Y7 so probably half the year will be in one. What are you worried about OP - whether your very advanced mathematical child will have suitable peers, or that your child will miss out on top set because of low SATs scores, or something else?

There is always a range of ability in a top set because there's a long tail on the distribution. For the most able it's more about how they are supported themselves, rather than what the cutoff point is at the "bottom" of their set.

I'm not sure we can give you very helpful answers as your question stands, but if you explain why you're asking we might be able to help with whatever your concerns are.

You could also look at their GCSE results and see how many 8s and 9s they are getting for maths. The % isn't that crucial in itself, but it gives you a sense of what grades might be possible if you know vaguely where on the distribution curve your DS sits.

That depends on do many different factors, including the fact that not all schools use Sat results, at least not exclusively. My son is in y7 and for each subject there are 7 sets. Only 30 kids in each of the top sets - so a child could well be getting greater depth scores in Sats and not be in the top sets.

My son's school doesn't set in Year 7, however he has been pulled out of MFL to do extra reading support despite getting a reading comprehension scaled score of 120 so they clearly don't look at the SATS scores at all! They do CATS in a couple of weeks but I don't think they set until Year 8. I do think it helps with transition to be in the same group for most subjects.

I had a call this week from the maths teacher for my dd2's maths set in year 9. She's top set and he started his conversation with 'i've seen the data. Half of the class is expected to get GCSE nine and the rest eight." (i hadn't asked!)

This is a large girls comp with an eight form intake and there are two top sets. I think if they really did achieve those grades then every child in that class would be in the top 10pc of the country (they don't have sats scores of course because of covid).

But it varies hugely, not only by school, but by year. DD1 (Y11) is predicted a 7 in maths and has been throughout her time at school. She is also in top set - same school.

You can think of it from the reverse direction….what grade do they get at the end of Yr11 and what range of grades is there.

In some schools the top set in Maths will all get 8/9 or in others 7-9. There might be an outlier with a grade lower. You can ask the school if you really want to know - what grade range would someone in top set typically be within?

In most places, there will be little setting outside of Maths or perhaps sciences too.

In selective schools there’s often little early setting and then often just for Maths. My DS went to a selective school. He had MIDYIS and CAT4 tests of 125. His maths was weak and he was in the bottom set. He still got a 9 in the end, although A Level Maths wouldn’t have been good for him. In that school all of the top set would be expected to get 9. Even in the bottom set, most got 8s, with a few 9s, a few 7s and perhaps 1 person on L6. This was a selective school though,so not typical. However, in a large Comp with many sets (sometimes up to 9 or 10 different levels) the top set will be very able. The smaller the Comp, the bigger the range usually within each set. Of course, especially in early days the setting might not be terribly accurate and some will need to move up or down, so the ability range will usually reduce.

My guess is somewhere between 106 and 120 in their SATS.
Not sure why you ask the question, but if you think your child is in the wrong set query it with the school. A friend of mine was surprised their child was not in a higher set, when she queried with the school their maths SATS result had not been entered in the secondary school system and she had been set based on an English sats score and a blank maths score. Once the school realised the admin error they moved the child up.

I wouldn't worry too much, schools seem to move kids around over Y7-Y9 to get them in the right set.

DD is in Y9 so didn't do SATs, but her comp do NVR banding tests for their admissions process. It's a massive school and I think there are something like 15 sets or more (they're set for Maths, English and Science). Her school is also a maths specialism one.

DD is exceptionally good at NVR test for some reason, but has severe dyslexia where she needs concepts explained slowly, clearly and multiple times before she gets it installed in her brain.

She landed up in the top set in Y7 and wasn't awfully happy as she couldn't keep pace with the other kids. They moved her a bit too low in Y8 and she was finishing everything way before the rest of the class and getting bored. Y9 she has the perfect set and a teacher she loves and is actually enjoying it.

I would keep an eye out on whether your child is in the right paced set for their ability and needs. Hopefully the school will be equally attuned to this... if not, make sure you raise it.

our school def do not use SATS at all in which set they are in.