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Secondary education

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Are these GCSE grades good enough for Uni

118 replies

TheGreekTaverna · 03/09/2022 08:35

So, dear child got there GCSE results last week and unsurprisingly, given lack of revision until day before each exam, ended up with 2x8, 4x7, 3x6, 1x5.

They were predicted at least 7s but basically, said that teachers had told them that University doesn't actually look at GCSEs for entry. Dear child is very lazy so will try and get away with doing absolute minimum.

I went to Uni in the 1980s so know that things are different now.

Given dear child's total lack of work ethic, not sure Uni is right place for them. Very bright but doesn't want to work. When I suggest doing any they got very defensive.

Dear child has also chosen notoriously difficult A Levels. Maths, Physics and Computer Science.

So, really looking for Mumsnetters input. Do you think that they still have a chance to turn things around and secure a place at a good Uni???

Thank you.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 06/09/2022 17:12

Coming back to whether GCSE grades are looked at by universities when making offers….of course they are by universities which are over subscribed. How else so people think they whittle down the applications from a huge huge number, to the amount of offers they can actually make?

Yes they look at A Level predictions, but unis also know that 80% of predictions are wrong and most too generous. So if you have 800 applicants with an A* prediction, but can only make offers to 350, how do you choose? Most courses do t interview, so they have to sift somehow and GCSE grades are something concrete that has already been achieved and a good predictor of A Level success. So absolutely on the top courses, they will be looking at 7-9 and often 8-9 in order to sift.

So lots of 6s with an odd 7 or perhaps an odd 8 won’t be a barrier for most courses in most places. And for most people with those grades, the courses they want will be open to them. But for those who want to do too courses at top unis, 8s and 9s as the majority of grades, really will make a difference. The course requirements will never pin down exact GCSE requirements at the top end, only minimums, and each year quite where they will sift out will vary as applications fluctuate a bit, but they will be using measures to sift out applications, when they simply can’t offer to everyone who has predictions of the course requirements.

They will look at contextual flags and different universities might give weight to other things too, but it is daft to say GCSE grades don’t matter for ANYONE or don’t influence university places for ANYONE. 5s and 6s with the odd 7 will certainly get the kid onto A Levels in many places and also onto Uni somewhere too, but for those with aspirations of popular courses in popular unis, it does make a difference if you’ve got the better GCSE grades or not and it’s daft to suggest it doesn’t.
And it’s fine for kids aiming for middling institutions or even really great institutions for slightly less competitive courses, with middling GCSES, but for those who were really clever and aspire to the competitive courses, having been really lazy at GCSE and gained middling decent grades, rather than stellar results that they were capable of, can be thing that closes some doors to them. We have to be honest about all this and not just say all GCSE passes are equal and equally welcomed.

pointythings · 06/09/2022 18:51

@TizerorFizz O levels were for the elite. The rest did CSEs. These days most people do GCSEs, so you're going to more passes and more high grades. This will include people who would not have had the opportunity in the old system.

The standard of essay writing in the humanities and the amount of knowledge expected has increased massively - it's no longer just about learning dates and names, it's about connecting events and presenting coherent arguments. The syllabus on WW1 is daunting (but excellent). Grade boundaries in MFL tend to be very high, despite the curriculum having toughened up. There's still too much memorising, but these days there is also an expectation that the students have studied grammar and vocabulary. Unless you're a parent who has recently had DC going through it, you can't judge.

TizerorFizz · 06/09/2022 19:05

@pointythings
Im well aware of what O levels were. Grammars did them snd yes, they were more difficult! Are you really saying any exam in recent times was about dates and names? Total rubbish snd is offensive to anyone who took the exams you refer to. How on earth do you think these poorly educated DC ever became doctors and lawyers?

You also clearly have no idea of the WW1 syllabus at O level!

pointythings · 06/09/2022 19:24

Fair enough, I don't. But how much knowledge do you have of the current GCSE syllabus on WW1?

pointythings · 06/09/2022 19:27

Exams have to change because the world we live in changes. And as I have said, the maths syllabus now contains elements that used to be in the A level syllabus.

Givinghope · 08/09/2022 13:55

@WombatChocolate You explain this really well. My DS has some good grades but also three 6"s. His grades are 9/8 's in the subjects that he is studying for A Level.His freely admits that he didn't put in the work. He was in the wrong school for him and by the time this became evident it was too late to move. Although looking back we should have , he is in a new school for 6th form and seems like a changed boy. It's too early to tell of course, I thought a suggestion might be to apply for University with his A level's in hand, would this help him? They would need to be the A*/A of course for the University courses he wants.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

TizerorFizz · 08/09/2022 16:14

@Givinghope
If they weight GCSEs, applying with known A level grades won’t make any difference. The weighting remains the same. GCSEs matter for some highly selective courses.

Surely it’s worth applying for, say, two unis that are selective but make sure two or three are attainable. That’s what nearly everyone does. Few people would apply for the top 5 Economics degrees which all look at GCSEs and expect offers if GCSEs are not as good as other successful applicants from previous years.

TizerorFizz · 08/09/2022 16:15

And sorry to derail about O levels. It’s immaterial to this discussion.

pointythings · 08/09/2022 16:19

@TizerorFizz agreed, having a couple of aspirational unis plus some insurance is the best mix. It takes a while to work out courses and requirements and matching them up, so best to start early. And the young person should be doing this for themselves with discussion and support rather than the parents helicoptering it.

WombatChocolate · 08/09/2022 16:53

GivingHope, if he is just entering the L6, I would wait and see how this year pans out. If at the end of Yr12 when UCAS predictions are set, you might find the reductions are not as stellar as you hope. If this is the case, then you should adjust your expectations and apply to unis which he has a realistic chance to get into.

If however, he performs brilliantly and gets top predictions, I’d probably still apply as usual, as quite likely some of those top unis will still offer. He might not get all of the offers he would like or the particular one. I would apply, with it in mind that if he doesn’t get the offers he wants, then actually produces the top grades in the exams (many don’t in reality- most UCAS predictions are too generous) that he can re-apply with grades in hand. At that point, the GCSE grades will be less important.

However, I wouldn’t delay applying. It could be that he received an offer he’s happy with, or that in the actual A Levels he doesn’t do quite as well as he might have hoped and wouldn’t actually be in a much better position the following year.

If the course he’s wanting to do isn’t at a really top uni and highly competitive, the fact he’s got the 8/9 in the key subjects, might well mean that the odd 6 grade isn’t really a problem anyway. It will only be the very top places that need to sift to the extent that some 8/9 in the chosen subjects won’t be enough when there are 6s, simply because so many of the applicants will have all 9/8 or certainly all 9-7.

TizerorFizz · 08/09/2022 17:41

@WombatChocolate
What evidence is there that top flight universities alter their admission statements for post results candidates. I have not seen two sets of admission statements regarding how candidates are assessed. Do you know where has two alternative assessment criteria and publicly states that’s where they do.

WombatChocolate · 08/09/2022 18:12

The positions of pre and post A Level students is different. Those who haven’t taken their A Levels yet receive a conditional offer, whilst those who have their grades receive unconditional offers.

Univerisites never specify exact GCSE requirements beyond the minimums needed to have passed Maths and English. They might give indications of the kind of profile that is more likely to result in offers, but not in down exactly what that is. What this means is that for student who has not taken A Levels yet, GCSE grades are more likely to be considered in making offers for the very popular and over subscribed although this is more informal. The Uni cannot tell from the predictions of A Levels exactly who will and won’t achieve those predictions. Over 80% of UCAS predictions are inaccurate, so many of those with identical UCAS predictions won’t achieve them…but universities cannot tell whom, by simply looking at those predictions. The GCSE results are a way to make a judgment about who is more likely to achieve them.

For those who have their A Level results already….well, off course those are definite knowns. These aren’t applicants at significant risk of not actually achieving their UCAS prediction. The grades are already there and the Uni can make an unconditional offer. GCSEs cease to be such a key piece of evidence and in one sense have been superseded.

Every year some students reapply to UCAS post-results. Some did worse than they hoped and couldn’t get a course they wanted, having failed to meet their offer and having found that Clearing didn’t have alternatives they were happy with. They reapply with their grades in their hand to places they know will take them, and perhaps to others who might take them with a slightly lower grade outcome, because they are a ‘dead cert’ to take the place and turn-up producing a bum on a seat.

Others reapply, because the first time round they didn’t get the offers they wanted. They might have had brilliant UCAS predictions, but for whatever reason they didn’t get the offer they wanted. Every year, kids with 3 or 4 A star predictions don’t get an offer for the course they wanted. There simply are too many people for places. They were sifted out. Sometimes it will have been based on GCSE results, even though there is no formal GCSE requirement. How else would you do it if you were the admissions officer and had 500 applicants all predicted 3 A Star, but only had 300 offers to give? Sometimes these people will reapply with their grades in hand and get the place, being given it because they have the grades now. Sifting in the same way isn’t needed.

So no, they don’t alter their admissions requirement. In fact, of course there isn’t an admissions requirement ever, but a standard offer. There will be people with different grades on the course. A key example is those who were made offers, missed achieving them fully, but still get taken …which happens more often than people realise. The student who had an offer for AAA but who got AAB may well be taken if they had ‘firmed’ that Uni and the Uni would rather have certainty of filling the place with someone who wants to come and who is decent, rather than going to Clearing and possibly getting someone with 3 A there. Is that unfair to the 3A person? In some ways yes, but the uNi can take any applicant they like and that includes those with lower grades if they choose. Why do they do this…because they can’t be sure a 3A person will appear, or if they do if they are committed to their institutions having not previously being a firm or insurance offer. They would rather have certainty of a definite slightly lower calibration student than the potential risks of maybe getting a higher calibration student….a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush.

Rememebr too that not all applicants get the same offer. It does vary. That’s the unis perogative.

So going back to the issue of unis looking at GCSEs, it’s absolutely the case that the GCSE profile influences offers. Top unis state this but never define minimum acceptable grade profiles, just ‘usual’ ones sometimes. You can gauarantee that in very competitive courses, most students have significantly in excess of those and also of the standard A Level offer in terms of their achieved grades. Uni offers remain dynamic and respond to demand and supply. In years when more apply, it is likely that any sift happens at higher GCSE levels…it has to, to whittle downthe massive lists to offer numbers that won’t result in the Uni being crushed by so many too many meeting their offer and turning up. But for those who have their A Levels already, offers can be made purely or lmsot purely based on those. The person who has 4 A Star A Levels in hand is no longer possibly held back slightly by the fact they have 2xL5/6 grades in their GCSE profile. But if they were a pre-Alevel candidate with UCAS predictions of 4 A Star A Levels, those 2xL5/6 might just be the thing that means they don’t get the offer, when their rival who also has 4 A Star predictions, but also no GCSEs below a 7/8 does get the offer.

Innocentkangaroo · 11/09/2022 15:00

My DS is considering taking 2 GCSES next summer. He is unhappy with his results and wishes he had put the work in. He's had a wake up call and really wants to turn things around now. Would a couple of 9's if he sat them next year make a difference? He has 9"s 8"s 7's but unfortunately 2 6's. He is aiming for Economics or Management at UClL, LSE or Warrick. The extra GCSE 's would be in subjects he didn't sit for GCSE. He aims to be predicted A* at Level. He is a smart boy and I think he could achieve this. He has done very little to date and really regrets it now. Any advice from teachers or those in the know would be greatly appreciated.

WombatChocolate · 11/09/2022 16:48

You have to declare all GCSEs and also the year they were sat.

When people do re-sits it is clear by the dates. Many Unis will not be bothered, but some more competitive ones are looking more for performance in the main sitting.

It probably isn’t worth doing further new GCSEs now. He has a decent number already. The lower grades will need to be reported. Having more above 8/9/10 isn’t going to make any difference really.

It’s good to aim high, but it’s also important to be realistic. When applying to Uni, having some options which include lower likely offers is vital. GCSEs are the best predictor of outcome at A Level. Not everyone follows these trajectories but the majority do. It’s good to aim high and look to do better. The key I’d say, is at this stage if starting A Levels not that’s a Uni in mind. Instead, have the target of achieving at best possible levels by showing dedicated work ethic. This is the thing in his control. Then, as the year ends, he will know what his grades are looking like and can choose unis based on these.

He needs to be honest with himself. Changing work ethic isn’t easy. Lots say they will but don’t. Talk to him about taking responsibility and working hard and doing his best. A isn’t something you just say you want and then achieve. It isn’t purely down to wanting it or even to effort. It will be achieved by those with the natural intelligence AND the effort required. He has whatever natural intelligence he has and can influence the effort he puts in. Having an aim of hard work and steady progress is much better than A. It’s an achievable thing. A might not be. If he manages to put in the really hard work and make steady progress, the appropriate grade and Uni will become clear. It might be A or it might be A or B. If you work really hard and do your best, no-one can criticise what you achieve.

His time and energy would probably be best spent on his A Levls and not new GCSEs. The latter could become another excuse for not doing his best at the current work - his A Levels. What’s done is done re GCSEs.

WombatChocolate · 11/09/2022 16:48

No idea why bold keeps happening randomly.

Innocentkangaroo · 11/09/2022 17:11

Thank you @WombatChocolate for your reply.
It makes sense.

noblegiraffe · 11/09/2022 19:24

WombatChocolate · 11/09/2022 16:48

No idea why bold keeps happening randomly.

It’s because MN puts anything between two asterisks as bold as a formatting shortcut.

So when you type A* early in a post, then again later, it’ll take out the star and bold everything between the two.

KateRose · 18/07/2024 08:56

Thank you to original poster and the helpful posts here these thoughts are going through me head now about my son. Two years on, I hope your son does well this summer

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