Options: no geography or history, is that a problem

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DD has to choose options this coming year. They’ve got to take: double science, maths, English language, English literature, RE and a modern foreign language. They then get three more choices. Is it odd to choose ones she really likes, so three art/design/music options? That leaves out history and geography, and classics and Latin. It seems so early to be cutting out the wider arts. She will probably go onto study something art or design based but who really knows that at 13?

And music really depends on where they are in their ability - dd1 just sang stuff she already knew for grade 8 and knocked off the pieces of composition on Sibelius in no time, she was already a very accomplished musician including piano. Others really struggled because of lack of keyboard skills, not being proficient on Sibelius and their musical ability on their chosen instrument/voice (liking to sing pop songs isn't sufficient). The academic side of music was simple if you had grade 5 theory and knew how to analyse music

Exactly this! School timetablers infinitely prefer core subjects to options; in an option block, all of the teachers for all of the subjects have to be free at the same time and once you have a few part-timers it becomes a real problem. So being told "students must take an MFL" might well mean that it's impossible not to.

If she likes art then I would opt for classics over music as it is a better fit for A levels and university. Music can be done as a hobby outside school.

DD is just going into year 11, having dropped classics, history and geography, in favour of music,computing (probably not called that) and business studies. They seem quite light on homework (selective school) and I think the school tends to expect grades of 7 or above.

For music, grade 5 theory was a prerequisite and I think most of the kids are grade 8 on at least 1 instrument (but have been advised that it is better to ace an easier repertoire). They are encouraged to do practice recitals at lunchtime and a few performance after school, but it isn't especially onerous. It seems to me that it is one of the subjects where the staff can make or break the course.

Her friends are busy busy doing art. DT less so.

FWIW I think she'll end up studying something physics/computing/engineering related at Uni.

Staff can make or break most subjects! Art definitely. It’s also a lit the culture of the school. Do they value the arts? Or just one aspect? DDs gcse school was brilliant for drama. Useless for art we eventually discovered.

Dropping subjects at 13/14 which are general in favour of options which lead down a narrow path is not really a good idea for anyone. Even scientists should have a broad general education and geography is useful for some branches of engineering - eg environmental.

Agree with @TizerorFizz, DD2 was always going to do science A levels and science degrees, but alongside triple science, maths, further maths and stats she also took history, Spanish, English x 2 and PE for GCSEs, just to give her that broad range. No regrets re. those subjects.

yes, the school does value fine arts and music. It values all subjects, but the arts are high on their agenda. She likes her DT teacher a lot. Art has been less successful but that won’t put her off. The music department is great.

She can’t drop the MFL. Well she could but it’s complicated, and I don’t think it’s good idea anyway. I think a language is important but I think she’d prefer to takeLatin than Spanish, but that isn’t an option. Yes, I’m aware of the place of the MFL in government weighting. I read that this is likely to change but I don’t think anything will change for DD cohort.

As for music, I think that’s a deep conversation between us and the school. I don’t understand why a child starting gcse music would have to have theory grades. Surely other GCSEs start from scratch?

I do understand that portfolio subjects can take a lot of time. But surely it’s a good lesson to learn early, that you need to stop, to work to deadlines, that you can kill art by overdoing it. If she goes to art college then gets a job in the arts it will all be about that!

she has her heart set of a particular PT job too. I think that will be good for her. I suppose I want to encourage her to do subjects she likes but to still have a life.

I do think she should do Classics if she’s not going to take geography or history.

Thank you all!

Honestly, I'd be led by what she wants. I'm not sure you even have to have gcses in either to study as AS level if she so chooses in the future. I'm a little biased mind, I didn't do history or geography gcse. Mainly chose art/ textile subjects as that's what I enjoyed. Fast forward twenty odd years and I work in a non-arts based profession and have a doctorate. My GCSE choices never held me back. 😉

Considering most colleges just ask for 5 gcse grades 4-9 or 5-9 for brevity or T level courses and grades above 7 for specific a levels I would also consider this when choosing subjects.

If she plans of doing btec or T level in an arts subject then let her do what she enjoys and so will more likely get the grades in and subjects that will give her the foundation knowledge for these courses.

Because ultimately if she chooses uni what she does in college will count. GCSEs get you to the college part!

I only had two choices at school as had to do a tech and a MFL. I chose history and art, always felt that was a good balance and gave me options at A Level (where I also did those two subjects, although my degree ended up being in English Lit).

Yes, led by what she wants and what the school suggests.

It’s always a valuable lesson to learn there is more than one person in the debate. There’s timetabling and workload and a broad education to consider. You need to look at what prior knowledge is needed for music. If she reads music, the theory won’t be difficult.

DD had no choice but take MFL and either geography or history. I actually preferred it as I find the GCSE too narrowing at that age.

Do keep in mind that arts and music are very time consuming subjects, two of DD's friends do arts and they have to build large portfolios. Similar with textilen and design, DD's school actually talks individual with children choosing only these kind of options and discuss the impact in details and also let them talk to Y11s to get a better picture of the workload.

OP, please don't think the standard required for PP's school is normal - although not unknown for selective or private education. Yes, you are right, Grade 5 (or any) theory is not a requirement of the exam board, this is a hoop put in by the school. Also, it is not standard that 'most' are at Grade 8 in 'at least 1 instrument'. At our 'normal' comp only 1 or 2 are. Many are considerably lower and the markscheme is written to reflect a much lower level of achievement. Obviously if you are at a higher level to start with the performance part is easier.

Again, thank you. Taking on board everything you’ve all said.

I have been mulling over music grades and GCSES. I can see it’s more likely to be a sure thing for a school if the child is already at or above GCSE music. It shows the school in a good light if the child gets another GCSE.

We have read the music syllabus that DDs school uses and it doesn’t mention grades. I imagine a lot of the children who take the music GCSE will have taken grades but surely not all of them can? You have to pay for them and music tuition is expensive. This is a comprehensive. Surely they can’t be running GCSES that are only accessible to the children of the rich?

I am wondering if the child performs their own music? For that they’d not need to know much, if any, music theory?

We’re going to have to talk to the music teachers as they know DD.

I think that it wouldn’t be a bad thing if she took two arts subject and took CS or even Latin.

It is interesting to get a broad perspective on the issue so thank you.

I do not know a musical child who doesn’t play an instrument or sing. It’s funded by schools if you are on fsm. I know plenty of very ordinary parents who pay for school music lessons and see it as vital because Dc have talent. It’s like not doing sport if you are sporty.

Music GCSE is 30% performance and she needs to be playing/singing to at least grade 3 standard to get a decent mark. As she's not, I'd just scrap that one.

Is she good at science, double science isn't great for going into A level, so she's narrowing down her choices there.

2 coursework based GCSEs are full on. DS's friend did DT and Art and it was really full on, especially around the time that he was trying to study for his mocks. He said too that he'd have got a better mark in either, if he'd just concentrated on one of them.

OP i am a form tutor ( as well as teacher) in a comprehensive school. I would strongly discourage even the most able artists/ musicians/ whatever from doing music as well as 2 arts/dt type subjects. As others have said, and I really don’t think you have taken this on board yet, the coursework load is very high, and your dc can’t be in 2 places at once at lunchtime and after school. ( All of my own dc also did art GCSE, and 2 did art A level so i have seen it from a parents perspective as well).
it isn’t really about her learning to balance stuff at this age, it just will make it really hard for her to do well, and not feel very overwhelmed with the amount of work outstanding.

I think it is important to understand how the ‘performance’ marks at gcse interact with ‘music grades’.

Essentially, the ‘level of difficulty’ of the music performed sets the maximum marks available for this component. So someone who is performing eg a Grade 1-level piece (regardless of whether they have taken the grade exam or not) has a cap on the amount of narks they can get, whereas someone performing a Grade 5 level piece has a higher cap. Even at A-level, Grade 8 isn’t needed for the cap to be set at the highest level, but someone performing at less than Grade 3 level (note - whether they have taken exams or not) will have the cap set at a level that may make the highest gcse results unattainable.

Similarly, Grade 5 theory isn’t needed. However, both for the composition and appraisal parts of the qualification, not being able to read or write some type of standard musical notation or understand technical terms is going to be a real disadvantage.

Your school music teacher will be able to advise at what level your child’s current performance could be set (against the board’s descriptors, as they have not taken exams), and would also be able to say whether their understanding of music theory is strong enough to access the course at the necessary pace.

At the end of the day, it also depends how your child might do in another subject - if your child’s performance level is such that eg their highest possible grade is likely to be a 6, with extra homework devoted to rehearsal etc, then that only really matters if their grade in an alternative gcse is likely to be equal or higher with the same amount if work, or whether the extra work outside class will negatively impact other gcse subjects.

Double science is perfectly ok for most DC.

Just done a bit more Googling. ‘Standard’ music grade level for Pearson is Grade 4. 3 or lower is ‘less difficult’ - lower cap, while Grade 5 and above performance pieces are regarded as ‘more difficult’ so highest percentages available. Note again that those grades don’t have to have been taken, but the music performed myst be of that standard of difficulty.

Similar information is available for other boards - I can find out if you give me a specific board for your school.

s she good at science, double science isn't great for going into A level, so she's narrowing down her choices there.

Particularly since reformed GCSEs (9-1), but tbh even beforehand, this isn’t true. Dd did double science in a school that only offered double, and ended up with an A* in Physics in a sixth form where most had done triple science.

The ‘new’ double has so much content that building A level on it is straightforward. The only caveat would be if double in ONLY done by the lowest attainers, where the curriculum may be covered incompletely or in less detail, but the complete double curriculum is perfectly good preparation even for the very highest attainers at A level.

RS should not be compulsory. My kids were able to opt out of it. I would encourage your dd to do either history or geography depending which she enjoys more. Obviously rs is a worghwhikr subject but I wouldn’t be happy with my child doing it as their only humanity. I would also only encourage your dd to do two practical subjects as they are time consuming especially dt.

Yes, there should be some automatic warning that pops up when someone says double science won't be good enough for A Level!

I think MFL should be a requirement for all students except in unusual circumstances (eg, dyslexia, etc)

I think learning a foreign language to some level isn't just important in and of itself, but will hopefully remind students as they grow up that learning a second language is both difficult and admirable, so not to be arseholes when on holiday in countries where other languages are spoken or interacting with people who have moved to the UK from elsewhere where there English isn't great yet.

Other countries are great about teaching additional languages. We should not be treating ourselves as the exception to this rule because of the accompanying attitude problems it often creates.