No tutor, what is achievable for the 11+?

[Catcatcat12]

Did anyone NOT use a tutor and have their daughter get into one of the Hammersmith schools? Is this really achievable?

If so, how much work did you do, and what did you do?

Seems like everyone I know is tutoring a fair bit and we are only starting year 5. I would love to hear from those who did not use a tutor, and managed the preparations themselves. Has it ever happened… 🤓

Yes, it’s possible. We did home preparation / tutoring with no outside input beyond a mock exam in Sutton. About an hour a week, for about year, but ramping up nearer the time. Dd just about to start at SPGS.

So do kids who get these places often come from those families who can splash out the money for private tutors? 😢

Watching here with interest

I’m asking partly because a very close friend of mine talked me through her daughter’s 11+ prep and revealed that she had paid in the region of 20K over the course of two years in tutoring fees (they had one main tutor who worked very closely with them and even
traveled with them one year, and also one or two specialist tutors for certain subjects), mocks, camps and so forth. I believe her. They ended up getting an offer from one of the schools they wanted. I realise this is not the norm, most won’t be spending anywhere near this kind of money, but I am sure it still adds up over the years.

I’ve also heard of people doing a lot of tutoring, plus prep school fees. For us, it wasn’t necessary.

DIYing isn’t free as you need to buy the various 11+ practice materials, plus a subscription to Atom is useful as the exams get closer, and we paid for the mock exam to get her the experience of sitting in a big hall in exam conditions. But it’s very much cheaper. There are a lot of unused 11+ resources offered for free on our local FB groups every year, once the exams are over, so that’s another way of reducing the cost.

Not a daughter and not Hammersmith but we didn’t have a tutor and managed to get into the top London day schools plus a few boarding ones. We just did Atom and Bofa for a few months and a few mock exams bought online. And then I helped him work through his weak areas. 11+ isn’t a rocket science that people make it out to be, and can easily be done at home (or maybe the child is not suited for the school).

i only know of two children who passed the 11+ without being tutored to within an inch of their lives.

Over here tutoring starts at the end of Year 4. Private 1-1 tutors are booked years in advance, and the tutors who work with groups test students before accepting them, I’m guessing so they an keep their 100% pass rate.

Here’s something that child’s parents might not appreciate: IF their child requires bucket loads of tutoring to pass, how will they actually get on at school? Wretched to be struggling at the bottom! There will be some super smart kids at the top schools, who are mentally quick and “bright”, who enjoy learning, are engaged, and scarily able, make no mistake! Of course, maybe their child would have passed anyway, in which case the massive OTT tutoring was unnecessary.

Not Hammersmith schools, but my two kids went to Reading and Kendrick grammar schools, which are considered to be "super-selectives". Reading has the top state school results outside London (at least some years) and Kendrick not far behind.

My daughter only decided to take the test less than month beforehand. She maybe spent about 10 hours practicing the tests. Total. You can buy books of practice tests. My son started a bit earlier, but probably did a bit less as he wasn't so motivated.

You might think that because they passed the tests with minimal effort they would do very well when they got there. That was true for my daughter but not for my son. He did OK. Well enough to continue to sixth and onto a good university. But was always one of the weakest in the school. Not because he isn't bright, but he's not willing to work harder than strictly necessary. So I actually think that the fact a child is willing to work hard to pass the 11+ is just as good a signal of future success as one who breezes through without trying. You can't get high grades at A level just by showing up for the exam and being smart. Some of his friends who worked hard for the 11+ and still didn't get a place ultimately did better.

I agree with all of this. I think the potential problem is that due to the competitive landscape, the kind of child you describe who would be a naturally good fit for lack of a better expression, may not get in, as other candidates will be better prepared for the specific exam format (or whatever it is that good tutors do!).

anecdotally, I’ve heard from parents of children who are in Mensa and get great CAT scores (assuming this is a reasonable indicator of someone being a good fit for a selective school) that they were often unsuccessful in their 7 and 8+ exams until they started tutoring 😩 I think there is definitely some sort of exam specific set of skills which need to be acquired in order to get in to these selective schools.

@mast0650 Bright and hard working is a rare combination… looking back at my own university studies, the people who were the most successful were the hard workers, the really bright ones were often a bit lazy.

@Feelinfin Just wanted to add that my friend who spent 20k in exam prep is still tutoring her child in secondary school, for the reasons you outlined. I guess some people are prepared to keep up the tutoring indefinitely

Bright and hard working is a rare combination

Really? I know plenty! Obviously it's all relative, but I think it applies to the majority at my kids' schools (just not my son!) and at the Uni where I teach. I mean, they might be a bit lazy some of the time, but not consistently!

But they are highly selected populations. So I guess that is perfectly consistent with it being a rare combination!

To be honest you should be able to get through it without tutoring if you're really going to thrive.

If nobody was tutored this would be fine. However your children are competing with those who are. Ds’s grammar went on scores whereas the local girls’ you just had to pass and went on distance. Boys travel in from 30 odd miles away so competition is fierce! Best to prepare them for the battle as much as poss!

OP, I think embarking on the whole 11+ process will teach you a lot about your child, in a good way ... some respond positively to it, others don't, and both of those are fine, it's just about what suits each particular type of child. A DC who soaks up knowledge and enjoys sitting the mock tests might be quite happy at an academically taxing school. One who resents it all might be happier at somewhere more easygoing, or with different priorities such as languages, music, sport, etc.

If you go into it with the goal of "this is a way to help find out what type of secondary school will suit my kid," rather than "my child must attend the best school possible," then it'll probably be more rewarding for both of you.

@Squiblet I agree. Dd is our youngest so we have been through the 11+ before, and we always made a real effort to find the right level of school to aim for. Previous dc were never tutored and got in to the schools we were hoping for, perhaps confirming that we had the right idea for them.

dd is a completely different child, and her school suggested we look at the Hammersmith schools when the time comes, but I am realistic about the effort it takes to prepare your child for this. I don’t know if it’s going to be possible without going down the tutoring route, because I’ve never seen it done. My dd is probably not more clever than some of my friends children, who had to work very hard, with loads of support, to get an offer from these schools. So I’m not sure if it’s going to be worth a try or if we are just going to lose 3 x £250 in registration fees, and risk disappointing dd in the process

My daughter got a place in the hardest school to get into in the country (in terms of over subscription) after being tutored. She went to a learning centre rather than having a private tutor. She had 3h 45minutes tutoring once a week which cost me £145 a month. I’m a part time carer on minimum wage in an extremely deprived area, so hardly rich and splashing out. Anything is possible when the child is determined enough, mine was extremely self motivated

Not true imo. Have you seen an 11 plus nonverbal reasoning paper? You’ve got no chance of working it out within the time restrictions if you’ve not been taught what they’re asking for

@Ihatethenewlook yes, I have. My child took it.

Not true imo. Have you seen an 11 plus nonverbal reasoning paper? You’ve got no chance of working it out within the time restrictions if you’ve not been taught what they’re asking for

But there is a big difference between practicing a paper or two in advance, with the help of an answer sheet and either a tutor or someone else who is good with these things. and spending years on regular practice. I think it would be a bit daft to go in completely blind. But for my kids 5-10 hours practice (with some input from me) TOTAL in the one month before they took the test turned out to be plenty.

@mast0650 - agree, especially for NVR.

I don’t agree about NVR. DS was scoring 80% on the first NVR papers he did purely because he always loved puzzles and matching games. It then went up to 95% with practice. I think it’s perfectly fine to get a tutor if there are gaps in learning but it’s not a magical cure nor is it something parents can’t do (time permitting)

I used to work in a grammar school and this situation was heartbreaking. The students who had probably always been one of the top in primary were very much at the bottom suddenly and their mental health took a massive dive and they took so long to settle and a lot ended up leaving when the parents finally saw sense!

It could never happen, but tutoring should be banned, but it would be impossible to do and regulate. Practice papers etc..... no issue but the massive tutoring that you used to hear about when you spoke to the students used to break my heart.

These students are so bright but stick them with the top 5-10% of other students and suddenly their self confidence and self worth is on the floor.

DD is at one of those Hammersmith schools. She went to a low pressure non selective independent primary who did some papers with them in the autumn term of year 6.

I took out the full subscription to Atom at the very end of year 5 & she did a bit on it most days of the summer holiday until November. She's bright but a bit lazy unless she enjoys something. Luckily she just loved Atom as it felt like puzzles & she enjoyed collecting the badges.
We never used a tutor & in fact I was a bit naive about the lengths I now know others go to!

Now we are in you can really see the kids that have come from the hothouse 'feeder' preps with tutoring on top. It's somewhat a shock that they are no longer top dog.

There are also plenty of girls from more modest backgrounds who have been expected to work hard from a young age and do so diligently & willingly. They are often at the top of the class.

You can definitely do it without a tutor & if your DD is naturally bright or tremendously hard working & focused. I found Atom to be a really good barometer in terms of whether I was aiming too high. DD was scoring highly on it from day 1 & we sort of lucked out by many of the schools resorting to ISEB in the pandemic as Atom leant itself to that sort of adaptive testing.
I was a big fan of Atom!

Am I in the minority that didn't do too much tutoring for DD? She had about 6 sessions and 2 mocks? Tutor didn't do much NVR, so we looked at some books and YouTube on it a week or 2 before the actual 11plus. She passed, subject to the wait for allocation day, for a Devon grammar school.